THE VON ZEDLITZ CASE

Dominion, Volume 8, Issue 2550, 26 August 1915, Page 6

THE VON ZEDLITZ CASE

GOVERNMENT TO TAKE ACTION IF NECESSARY

STATEMENT IN PLAIN TERMS

A LIVELY DISCUSSION IN PARLIAMENT

i as loyal to New Zealand as h'a himself t was. Mr. Payne: Anybody is mad who ' thinks a German is loyal to any country. 5 Mr. Sneaker: Order! Order I 1 b "I Trust No German." s Mr. E. P. Lee said that Professor von . Zedlitz was holding a position which j the Government did not think should . bo held by a German. So much .was ' admitted in the reply to the question. It would therefore have been more satisfactory if the' Government had said definitely that they would introduce the necessary legislation. For his own part, ho trusted no German, whatever his reputation or general character, and ho did not think'that Professor von Zedlitz should be. retained on the sfcafl: of Victoria College. He hoped the Government would not delay longer in dealing with the matter. A Falsa Accusation. • Mr. Payne made an interjection to the effect that -people were wondering whether there was a German in tho Cabinet Mr. Massey raised a point of order, and . Mr. Payne, called upon to say what he meant, said lie had been given to understand tliat the Minister of Justice had a German mother. This statement was received with consternation and laughter. Dr. M'Jfab the Minister of Justice, laughed most heartily. He rose and. informed the House that his mother was Scotch. Mr. Payne said tliat lie had intended to refer to Mr. Herdman, until recently Minister of Justico. , Mr. Spanker ordered the withdrawal of the statement and Mr. Paynj withdrew it without demur. , Mr. Herdman-rose to refer to tho statement, but he was reminded by Mr. Speaker that the statement • had been withdrawn. Mr. Herdman: But, surely Mr. 1 Speaker, when a man makes a statement like that, which is an infamous ' lie Mr. Speaker' again interposod and told Mr. Herdman he would have his opportunity to speak later. He maintained his rulimr iiufaco of a protest from Mr. _ Poland that a member who was aggrieved ought to have precedence over all other business to make his explanation. • Tho Attorney-General tiarl his opportunity a min uto or two later, Mr. . Lee having -finished his remarks. "The honourable gentleman," he said, "has made a statement of. a most dastardly character, not only about me,' but about my mother. Sir, my mother, who is alive, is Sedtoli from the crown of her head to tho sole of her foot. Anv statement of this kind that reflects discredit oil my Scotch mother or my. Scotch father, who is, dead, I will resont as stronply hs I can. Continuing, lie said that he hoped, his denial of the statement would ho given some publicity, although tho statement had come from a part of the House wliich did not deservo much respect. Tho Facts of the Case. He wished to make soma reference to tho charges made against the Government concerning the retention, of Irofessor von Zedlitz on the staff of V ictona College. It had not been his business to do much with aliens since tho outbreak of war. except as Minister m charge of the Police Department. Ho was in a position to say that tho Government had rigidly and strictly carried out the instructions . given to the New Zealand Government by tho Imperial Government with regarato aliens. If a' statement that even slightly suspicious was reported as having been made by any alien, naturalised or unnaturalised, that statement was inquiredl into very carefully, snd if there was the slightest reason to believe that . any alien enemy was a danger to tho State that person was immediately interned. First of' all, the Government was instructed to intern all German reservists, and they were strictly enjoin- ] ed not to interfere with persons who | could be vouched for by any respectable people. . Mr. Leo: That relates to internment. There is no question of internment in ' this caso. Mr. Herdman replied that tho question of internment had been referred : to. The Government had gone even farther than the British Government would have us go. With regard' to Professor | von Zedlitz, a considerable amount of misapprehension seemed to exist. It ! was quite true that he had tendered his resignation to the chairman of the College Council, but it was correct, as the Prima Minister had said, that tho College Council had not received his resignation. Mr. Fletcher: What a quibble I Mr. Hordman: It' is not a quibble; it is a fact. Professor von Zedlitz tendered his resignation to the chairman of the College Council, but I, as a member of tho council, did not know until recently that the resignation was tendered. I don't think the council ever considered Ills resignation. Another honourable member who is a member of tho council will be able to say whether it was considered at any meeting at which I was not present. The chairman and other membors of the council-came to the conclusion that it was not in tho interests of the college that Professor von Zedlitz should bo dismissed. I don't think the council itself ever officially considered! the resignation of Professor von Zedlitz. A letter on his case was referred to the Finance-Committee of the council, of which. I am not a member. This committee consists of gentleman of standing in the City, such as Mr. W. Ferguson, of tho Wellington Gas Company; Mr. Morton, City Engineer • and other gentlemen whose names I have forgotten for the moment, but all gentlemen who can take a fair and squaro view of tho situation. The Interests of the College. ■ He went on to say tliat after hearing evidence the committee considered that it was not in the interests of the collego that they should dispense with tho services of Professor von Zedlitz. They called evidence from membors i of the college and students, and those students wore strongly; of in tho interests of the institution, tliat lie should lie retained there. That was the positiou when the matter came before the council, and despite the strong feelings he had that the community should see that no alien person who could do any harm should be left in a public post/he Itfid no hesitation when that report camo down, as a man who believed in fair play and justice, iu believing that Professor von Zedlitz's services should be retained. He thought that a roeolutiou to that effect was Agreed to to. all liuA .

The liveliest disonssion of tho session took place in Parliament last niglit about the case of Professor von Zedlitz, an unnaturalised German on the teaching staff of Victoria College. Questions had been asked by members which in effect suggested that the ' Government should tako steps to dismiss Mr. Zedlitz from his position in the college. Mr. Massey's rep!y, -which was subsequently debated at some length, was as follows: "(1) Whether Professor von Zedlitz should retain his position or not is a question to be decided by the Victoria College Council, and not by the Government, he being a servant '' of the council and not of the Government. ' "(2) The Houso should understand that the Government has, since the outbreak of war, strictly carried out' the instructions issued by tho Imperial Government, to the effect 'that care should bo taken not to arrest ' persons whose known character precludes suspicion, or who are personally vouched for to the satisfaction' of the Government.' ' "(3) In addition to what has been said above, the Government wishes to make clear that, if necessary, • legislation will be introduced before - the end of the session to dealt with the situation, inasmuch as it is of opinion that neither in, University College nor public schools is it de- ' sirable that -unnaturalised enemy subjects should continue to give instruction to the youth and children of the Dominion." Question Discussed. Mr. R. Fletcher (Wellington Central), who had asked one of the questions relating to the case, said that the answer was absolutely unsatisfactory. He could assure the Prime Minister fihat there, was a strong feeling of indignation' against the employment of that alien. Mr. Ma-ssey: Have you read the answer ? Mr. Fletcher: Yes, I liavo read it. The Attorney-General said that no alien ooiild be retained in the servico of the Croiyn, and said' that all aliens in tho 6orvice of tho Crown had been dismissed. That was a "shuffle," becauso he said that Professor von Zedlitz was not a servant of tho Crown. Victoria Collego wa3 subsidised by tho Government, and to' all intents and purposes it was only a Government institution. I don't know Professor von Zedlitz. He may be a. very lovable man, but I object to tho discrimination shown in this case. If he had, not been oonnected with the elite in tho social circles he would have been dismissed straight away. As a matter of fact Professor von Zedlitz showed that he was a gentleman, because ho tendered his resignation to tho College Council, and they refused it. Mr. Massey: He 'told tho chairman that ho was prepared to resign. ■ • Mr. Fletcher: That is the same thing; then it would be the duty of tho College Council to accept his resignation. He should resign now, for tliero is a very strong feeling right through the Dominion. Respectable naturalised Germans had been dismissed from work on the, waterfront, and on ships he-re. . Mr. Massey: Havo you read paragraph 3? Mr. Fletcher: Yes; I havo read it all. The people of this country expected that the National Cabinet would havo* considered this ■ question. . Mr. Massey: It'has been beforo the National Cabinet. ■ Mr. Fletcher: I say.that the retention on the staff of the college of this gentleman is a very serious matter, and the responsibility rests on the head of the Government. I feel so strong on the matter that when the Estimates come down will be -prepared to move that the £700 placed oh. the Estimates be deleted. ... ! Differential-Treatment Alleged, Mr. J. T. M. Hornsby, supporting Mr.' Fletcher's contention, alleged that differentiation had been shown in the treatment of Germans in tihis country. Ho cited the case of a young- man, tho son of a German father and a French mother, who had had to give up an unimportant Government position, although all his sympathies were with | his mother's people. He quoted a statement by Baron von Zedlitz, who, he said, was an uncle of Professor von Zedlitz. This statement was to the effect that the German nation must in war nut its own interests first, regardless of the interests of all other persons or even of their lives.. Dr. A. K. Newman said that not only this caso._ but others had exercised the public mind. He could not understand the Government's supineness. lie had heard of . a German officer who had held a command in the New Zealand army.. and who had been relieved of his command in New Zealand at the beginning of tho war, and yet a fow days aeo he had been allowed, in the presence of a military officer or a Government official, to go to Palmerston camp. He had heard that this officer was invited to go to the camp by the Defence Minister. Mr. Allen: I give that statement an emphatic denial. Dr. Newman said that while a number of hedcers 'and ditchcrs and other people of low intelligence were put • on Somes Island and' on Motuilii, highly placed and highly educated Germans wero at liberty, free to write homo to Gennanv all about what we were doing. Poor, uneducated Germans, who had no chance of finding out anything, wore intorned. Ifc was ■ idle to say that no Gorman here could communicate with Germany. Ho could -write a letter to "John Smith. Whitcchapbl," and it would be sent on to the Gorman General Staff without any difficulty. ■ Ho was appalled at_ tlio \ supineness of tho Government which allowed people of German nationality to know a great deal about our overseas shipping. The "German" Officer. The Hon. J. Allen'repeated his donial of tho statement that lie had invited a German officer to go to the camp, and said, moreover, that ho had no knowledge of his baring been there. The honourable member might as well have named tho officer—it was Colonel Sandtman, of Napier. Mr. Wilford: Is he a.German? Mr. Allen: I don't know that he is. Mr. Hornsby: He is a German born. I know he is. Mr. Allen said it was not correct-, as had been said, that Colonel Sandtman was a Territorial officer. '■ At tho outbreak of war lie was prepared to join his battalion, but ho (Mr. Allen) did not think that adviaublo or right. But he believed that Colonel SimdtWM was

tho council. Ho believed that the professor was a useful servant of tho institution. He had a German father and an English mother, and was removed from Germany when seven years of age. Mr. Herdman understood tho professor was educated at Wellington College, ono of the most famous English public schools, and afterwards at Oxford. It was porfectly true that ho was not naturalised, but ho (Mr. Herdman) believed very little in the power of naturalisation. That night ail honourable mofnber had made reference to a statement which lie said was made by a relative of Professor von Zedlitz. Mr. Fletcher: I believe it is true.' Mr. Herdman said that tho member should not make such a statement without knowing it was correct. The statement referred to was of tho foulest character Fair Play and Justice. Mr. Herdman went on to refer to tho principle adopted by the different powers' in. dealing witli harmless citizens of an enemy country who were resident in the alien country at a time of war. Tho policy was to leave them alone. England was a country famed for fair play and justice; and if wo departed from tho principles of fair play and justice we immediately camo down to the level of tho Germans at the present time. Because Germany had violated every principle of International Law, every principle of humanity, and perpotrated every possible atrocity, it was no reason why the greatest nation the world had ever known should stoop down to their level. Mr. Payne: There is another side to that argument. Mr. Herdman: I say no 7 wo should not stoop in tho slightest degree to the le.vel of the German people. I believe that now Professor von Zedlitz knows that his position is offensive to tho public—that at the present time of war lie is only tho guest of the community— that commonsenso will dictate to him tho advisability of "resigning • beforo next meeting of the council, and before Parliament dissolves. They could not blame the Government about the matter; the whole of tho responsibility rested on the Victoria College Council. Tho professor was a servant of the Victoria College Council. It had been said all German professors had been removed from positions in the English Universities, but Glasgow University had now, or had up to a very recent date, two German professors on tho staff. Mr. Herdman said that he believed a good deal of this disturbance was due to politics. It would be within the knowledge of members that the case of Professor von Zedlitz was referred to tho Aliens Commission. Ono of the witnesses called by the Commission was a gentleman who was prominently connected with the Wellington Patriotic Society, Mr. H. G. Hill. That gontleman had been making himsolf prominent in connection with this matter, and wrote a letter to the Aliens Commission, and in that letter made a statement that ho was constantly receiving communications about Professor von Zedlitz. This was what the Aliens Commission said: "Mr. Hill disclaimed both on his own behalf and the society's any suggestion of misconduct on the part of- Professor von Zedlitz, and was interested in the general policy " Mr. Wilford: What are you Reading from ? ' Mr. Herdman: I said that it was the report of tho Commission. Mr. Massey: I am quite prepared to put it on tho table, but not the evidence. . • Mr. Hordman said that Mr. Hill hafl writ-ten that complaints had been mado, but all lie- had was one anonymous letter regarding misconduct. Mr. Hill had been posing as a jiatriot of more than ordinary character, and that was tho kind_ of stuff he gave the Aliens. Commission'. He said that that was a fair summary of the comments coming to him daily, and when asked to give those comments, said that lie hadn't any. 'The Aliens Commission report concluded tliat it was regretted that a loosely-written letter had conveyed a wrong impression. . Believed He Would Resign. Ho again stated that he believed Professor Von Zedltz would recognise tho feeling of tlio public mind at the present time, and feel that' ifc was inadvisable for him to occupy his position any longer. Being a man of honour lio would retire from the position he occupied. He was certain that thoso gentlemen on the Victoria College Council thought that they were doing right in acting as they did. If they felt it was their national duty to remove Professor, von Zedlitz tho House could be assured 1 that they would do it without fear or favour. Mr. J. Payne (Grey Lynn) referred to Colonel Sandtman, and said that while he respected him, lie would not permit him to see our military works. He sa.w the first troops go away, and had tho opportunity to give iflie information to Germany. Personally he protested against tho - "ridiculous sentiment" that actuated some of the people. He would meet the Germans on' the same steps as they mot us. Mr. Parr: Would you use poison gas? _ Mr. Payne: I would use poison gas <w every one of th'fin. ■ Mj\ W. Nosworthy (Ashburton) considered the answer given by the Prime Minister was fairly satisfactory. Tho only tiling was that .the Government should know tho feeling of tho House and the country, so that they would take the- steps they had indicated. Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh (Wellington South) spoke in support of Professor von Zedlitz. He had taken some'pains to Find out information from the students who had sat under the professor for two years. Ho had discussed it with a very intelligent young lady, who said that Professor von Zedlitz had never spoken against the Empire. She felt it would be a.great loss if ho were ' to leave the College. Not the slightest slip on his part had been giyen. It was a disgraceful, thins for the public of Wellington to turn round and liound this man beoause lie had done his duty. Mr. C. J. Parr (Eden) said that they" were dealing with an extremely delicate matter. Wo were certainly not going to sink to German methods; he took it wo wanted to be able to hold our heads up after the war. He felt that motives of revenge might impel them to tako steps that thoy would be sorry for afterwards. A grave injustice would be done if every person with German blood in his veins was locked up. Ho regretted, however, that any latitude should he given to ox-officials of tho German nation, for they were all potential. 6pies. Mr. T. M. Wilford (Hutt) referred to a statement made by tho member for Ashburton regarding tho Chief Justice. He (Mr. Wilford) had tho authority of tho Chief Justice to say that Sir Robert St-6ut- had never told Professor von Zedlitz not to be silly and resign; tho Chief Justice had not spoken to Professor von Zedlitz since the war began. The Plain Meaning of the Answer. The Right Hon. W. F. Massey said ho was astonished at some ofthe speeches made that evening. He wished . to quote tho reply: "The Government wishes to make it clear that, if necessary, legislation will bo introduced beforo tho end of tho session to deal with tho situation, inasmuch as it is of opinion that neither in University College nor public schools is it desirable that unuatiiralised enemy subjects should continue to give instruction to the youth and cliildlen of the Dominion." Mr. Poarco: But lie is giving instruction. Why not remove him? Mr. Massey: Why not removo.him! Does tiie honourable gentleman say that we control tho college. Ho repeated that tho Govern incut had no control ever tlio College Council, After review-

ing the instnictkma recoivcd from tlie Imperial Government, and the discharge of those instructions by the New Zealand Government, Mr. Mas soy said that he lvould bo •no party to anything in the way of persecution. "Nobody has accuscd me of disloyalty," he said. "I can only sav this —I. do not say it boastfully—that if Che Empire wants all or anything I possess tlie Empire is wclcomo to it. _ If the Empire wants' inc, if the Empire, wants my life, I will givo it freely. But at a time like this, I sav it is the duty of over.y professor or teacher to inculcate patriotism in his pupils, and I don't seo how an enemy subiect can do it. It seems to me our answer is simple and plain. Wo have 110 direct control ovor the council, or over the Professor, but we say we don't believe in the position as it exists. To make Quite sure of my ground, I submitted this answer to Cabinet this mornins;, and every member of tho Cabinet approved of it. The answer_ means that if stops are not taken either by tlio Professor himself or ljy the College Council to remove him from his present position before the session comes to an end. tho Government -will introduce legislation; for the purpose. I don't think anything can be clearer than that. I speak as head of the Government. and I say in the plainest possible terms that the present state of affairs cannot be allowed to continue. • Professor von Zedlitz must be separated fro id association, with tlie 'University. College.'' _____