THE DEBATE ON THE BUDGET. COLLAPSE OF THE DEBATE.

Press, Volume LXII, Issue 12591, 6 September 1906, Page 7

THE DEBATE ON THE BUDGET.

COLLAPSE OF THE DEBATE.

FURTHER SPEECHES. „~*ci_i. to "thb passs.") WELLINGTON, September 4. In the Houso this evening, Mr McNab, continuing his speech in reply to tho Leader of the Opposition, in the debate on the Financial Statement, said that the amount of land that would bo thrown on the market during the next ten years under the Government's proposals was as follows: — Hawke's Bay ("All, ha!) (laughter) £873,908; Canterbury, £556,549; Wellington, £151,348; Auckland, £142,218, ("Oh!"). In addition thero was tho land taken up on occupation with right of purchase in tho past, which would mature during the next ten years as far as the right of purchasing was concerned, and would come into the market.for those occupying it. This was valued at £984,800. Perpetual leaseholders would have £8-4,700, so that altogether during the next ten years from these three sources there would be a total quantity for those who desired freeholds of £3,292,126 worth. Tho lease-in-perpetuity was brought in at a time when, in tho opinion of the Minister of Lands, if he did not accept that form of lease, ho would not havo been able to get in another place such support as would have enabled him to put the Bill on the Statute Book. Mr T. Mackenzie: "It was brought in to go ono better than Sir George Grey." Mr McNab declined to accept any opinion expressed to-day in preference to tho statement by the Minister of Lands at the time. Personally he opposed in 1894 the 999 years' lease being applied to these purchases. Now they had lived to see the day when there was an almost unanimous chorus of disapproval of that form of tenure. It was neither freehold nor leasehold, and satisfied nobody. They wcr© substituting a period of G6 years. A man working a farm for himself could not expect more tlian that span of life. Mr Massey: "Is that all you wantP" Mr McNab: "It's not all he's getting, because when tho terra expiree wo intend to give him renewal for another term of 60 years. You jumped to the •ci:l.i.clusion that because no renewal was mentioned' in the Statement, no renewal was contemplated . The whole propcsal is based on the form of tho Glasgow leas© well-known in the city. (Hear, hear and loud applause). I my- ' self brought it down in Cabinet." Mr Massoy: "That's not what you have ©ot in the Statement." Mr McNab: "Wo have not got in the Statement anything that contradicts that. I defy the hon. gentleman to show it." Continuing, Mr MoNab said at tho end of tho period the property was to be rc-yalued, one valuer being nppointed by the Crown and another by the tenant, and these two appointing a third. It would not bo decided by the Valuation Department, which might not be in existence then. They were also proposing to enable the tenants to pay off a certain proportion of the principle, and the result would ho that the end of their terms they would havo paid from 60 per cent, np to 90 -per cent, of the capital and they were allowed to take up tho •land again at a rental to be fixed. A provision had been put in that tho amount of cash advanced would ho returned. The capital -value would disappear and the question then would bo what amount of rent the tenant would have to pay for tho future. (Hear, hear). An objection in the past was as to the continual supervision of the land boards. It was, however, found' that as -the years went by -the opinions of the lamd boardß changed. All the conditions, of cropping changed, and what was thought to bo fair ten years ago was nowadays found to bo very unfair. Tho onJy way to get rid of that state of affairs wae to enable the tenamit to pay off in such a manner that 'ho could be allowed to crop just the same as if it was freehold. Under tihe now conditions the tenant would be ablia to hold his land free fronTthc harareang oon'ditiona that had obtained in tho past, and transferees would have the earn© conditions as to ownership, and- in that way the owmers would be enabled to h>oid their land free from tho objectionable supervision of land boards. In the past it had' been ncoessary for the land boardis to examine the transfers. A remarkable case of that kind took place in Taranaki. A transferor of the leas© had prevailed upon some on© to offer him something that was entirely out of proportion £o the value of the improvement. It was indeed a ease of an attempt to rob a person out of the value of tho improvements, and tho woman—for it was a woman—would have been robbed of every penny whon- she went into occupation of that farm. Then the •land board stepped in and Eaid that the value of the improvement must"be cut down by £100 at least. (Mr Jenniiiigs: Quito right, too). Ycsj but tliat was the sum wih:ch stood between her and financial ruin. (Applause). But the Government could say that any person who had invested not le:s than 50 per cant, of the totaJ value of the place wouii be released, from thesa embarrassmerots. (Cheers.) AnI other thing was that thero was a lot of land! that had been taken up by young men who, when they started at first succeeded, but later on, when they heoame older, found that: thdv could not reduce tho capital value, and that the rental wae emtiroly beyond them. (Applause.) The vacuo of land had been going up by leaps arid' hotrods, and the colony's, indebtedness had been shown up whenever they approached the London money market, j but the Goveramwnt's proposals would put a different complexion upon the j matter, for they would be able to got ! tho momoy they required without any such difficulties being encountered. With regard, to endowments, the late Premier had put forward a scheme which was favoured from one ©nd of the colony to the other, and that was a proposal for endowments. It was not to be supposed that the revenue from the Crown lands to be set aside as endowments, ono and a half million acres, would meet the charges under the three heads—education, old age pensions, and charitable aid. To show how the. expenditure under these three heads, added together, had increased since 1903, he quoted tho following figures :—ln 1903 the expenditure under the three heads was £928,773, in 1904 £977,455, in 1905 £982,602, in 190(5 £1,142,604. This was an indication ot what a strain this expenditure was going to bo on the colony in coming years. If they did not make «ndow-. ments to meet it, and if they relied on tho ordinary consolidated revenue, they would be unable, as .the years went by, to grant concessions im variouß directions. The Government hoped to bo able to reduce enormously the taxation on food and on the necessaries of life, and they were not at the end of their tether with regard to concessions in the railway traffic of the colony. (Applause.) Without something to help tho consolidated revenue, their power to reduce taxation on necessaries and railway rates in the interests of country settlers would bo enormously reduced. Endowments had been granted to municipalities for municipal purposos, and their value could be seen in all directions. He would like to have seen County Councils and Road Boards similarly endowed, and if that had been done in place of the present system, theeo bodies would bo able to reduce

tit* vates enormously. The endowments would not remain at their present value, and as settlement progressed thore would be a largely increased levenuo from these sources, and they would be able to give material aesUtance to the taxpayers of the colony. He was sure that it would be realised by those scattered over the freehold and leasehold land* of the colony that tho Government had made an honest effort to provido for those who did not like tho leasehold and preferred the freehold. He was convinced that tiiis feeling of satisfaction would take the place of tho opposition that now charao-, tensed a large portion of the colony. ■ Ho had no hesitation in going back : to his constituents at any time, and ho had not tho slightest fear of what the result would be. Those who had got the freehold were not injured by the Government's proposals, nor was it ' the Government's intention to bring in j any proposals that would injure them, ' and as to the landless, they would be J found to be enormously in favour of : the proposals. He told the House that if the proposals were departed from, it would bo utterly impossible to have any endowments at all. They had only the native lauds, and although it had . been stated that there were eight mil-1 lion acres, the Native Minister assured him that the Lands Department could not expect from the Native Department moro than half a million acres. Ho ; would put what his colleagues said be- :' foro the word of tho member who 6aid i "No." Tho natives were going to deal * with their land themselves, and to occupy and cultivate it themselves, ' and the Native Department could ' not sco it,s way to hand over 1 more than the half million j acres. Thero was only a difference I of a quarter of -a. million acres bo- ! twet-n tho area the late Premier proposed to treat as endowments and this proposal. The extra lands which were included in this proposal were lands over which the right of purchase would not lie exercised. After expressing astonishment at the cabled criticism , by the ''Sydney Daily Telegraph," tho j Minister went on to say that whether members agreed with the proposals or not, they would give the Government credit for having brought down proposals that he who runs might read, and that a child might understand, yet those who did not run had failed to read, and those who wero not children had misunderstood. The Bill I was in print, and would be brought I down at a suitable moment. ''If we i cannot put it into law we are not \ going to run away from ft," added tho Minister. "Wo will stick fnirly well j to our guns for politicians. (Laughter.) | I tell my good friend tho Leader of ' tho Opposition that we are going to j fitick to our guns, and, if necessary, , go down under our gun?—(applause) I —and we are not going to float around I the Treasury benches for half a century j and the people not be able then to : understand what our policy is." (Loud j applause.)

MR HERRIES. Mr Herries said it was refreshing to hear what tho Hon. tho Minister called "putting forward a policy," seeing that that policy was one of shreds and patches. It did not really show what tho Government meant to do. Tlie Government policy apparently was tho leasehold, so far as tho Government was concerned, and the freehold so far as the other cliap went. That was, if they wanted tho freehold it was "go and rob someone else." The Minister- of Lands had stated in tho past tliat if he were a leaseholder he would not have a chanco of- being returned by his constituents. The Minister at Mataura hod advocated the freehold in regard to lands acquired under tho Lauds for Settlement Act, as by this means they could stop further borrowing for this purpose, as the money paid for tho freehold by the tenants would enable the Government to buy fresh estates. That practically was tho Opposition policy. Yet now they found the Minister advooaTing a very different policy— a hybrid policy that was neither ono thing nor another. The £50,000 limitation did not meet the requirements of the country. The only ppoper policy to limit large estates was by a graduated land tax. Was it worth while going to all this trouble on the part of tho Government for tho little benefit to he obtained P Was it worth while for the remaining 3,000,000 acres of land, of which only 1,000,000 acres were fit for settlement, to disturb the whole land system of the colony P If they were going to have a ohange let them have a change that would enable everyone to get. a small freehold. It was not statesmanlike to disturb the policy of previous Governments, simply at the bidding of the Minister's colleague (Mr Fowlds). His (the speaker's) policy was small freehold and graduated land tax and income tax, but the Government's policy was a mixturo of leasehold from the Btate and freehold from the unfortunate sixty-two pcoplo who wero to be despoiled of their land.

Referring to native land affairs, Mr Herries said that the -Under-Secretary for Native Affairs harl been appointed. Ho was hoping that it would have the effect of infusing more life into tho Department. He had hoped that it would no longer be necessary to wait four or five years before getting an acknowledgment of the receipt of an application for tho removal of restrictions. So far, however, it seemed that the same old "taihoa" policy was being continued. He hoped that the Minister for Lands and the Minister for Education, who seemed to be the moving spirits in the Administration, would ask the Native Minister to bring forward a live laud policy. There was an idea on the part of some that the lands of tlie natives should be taken from them, and used for tho purpose of ordinary settlement. That was wrong. Tho Maoris, he thought, should havo the first opportunity of cultivating their own land. If they did not do it they oould take it away, but give them the first chance to cultivate their own land, j in regard to the loan conversion opera- I tions, he urecd that Parliament should be given more details of these transactions. It was not a fact, as was often stated, that this information was desired for tho purpose of being used to the detriment of tfie- oolfmy. He thought tho finances of the colony were in a prosperous condition, and that tTiey would continue to bo satisfactory. Referring to the railways, lie asked were they in a satisfactory condition. Mr Hall-Jones: "Very." Mr Herries said that the net revenue per train mile had been 6tcndily dropping during tho past seven years. The | interest earned on the cost of con- ' struction had also dropped from £3 8s Sd per cent, in 1809-1900 to £3 4s 9d in 1905-0(3. Tlie Minister said that thp charges had been lowered, and the facili- i tics Increased. It was true, perhaps, that tho facilities had been increased, but tho average charues were no lower than they were seven years ago. He > also said that whist the earning power j of the Hurunui-Blufi line appeared to | bo steadily decreasing, that of the ; North Island lines, especially the Auck- i land section, was steadily increasing, ! THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.:

Mr Fowlds said the claim that instead of a rebate for payment of rente certain tenants should get leaees for several years without payment of rent, waa the foundation of the Bush and Swamp Crown Lands Bill. That foundation was laid by members who opposed the rebate to Crown tenants. Ho claimed that the rebate did not operate fairly throughout the country. Ho defied his critics to produce any evidence to justify them in saying that he believed the Government should have control of the lands of the colony and get the rents. He contested the contention that v graduated income tax would operate tho same -as a! graduated land tax. Could they com. j pare the lawyer, who had to work at night to make his money, with the landowner, who could sit and smoke his

pipe? Different methods would have to be used to prevent monopoly of land in the towns and in the country. Surely the fact that they had allowed the national estate to be frittered away for so many years was no reason why they should not do what they could to repair the position to-day. If tho arguments of the Opposition against endowments wero good, would not tho same arguments support the Government iv getting quit of existing endowments? (Applause.) If lesseea of endowments in future were to have the right of the freehold, why should not those who held existing leases? It was absurd to suppose that all the details of the Government's proposals could be included in the Budget. They went a good deal further than was usually done in such cases. Perhaps the Opposition proposals might bo in the Government's proposals, and a good deal more, and some of it a good deal implored upon, but they would not find a single item in the proposals which had been advocated by the Opposition, that had not also been advocated by members sitting on the Government side of the House. The Leader of the Opposition had appealed to Heaven to save them from such land laws as the Government proposed, evidently realising the impossibility of the Opposition to save them. (Laughter.) It tho hon. gentleman survived him, he honestly believed the country would

hear him proclaim that he (Mr Fowlds) was a great Liberal, 'because, if there was one thing on which Sir George Grey and himself were at one, it was with reference to tho land question and land values. For the hon. member to cay that Sir George Grey was at one with him on the land question, was an outrage on Sir George Grey's memory. On the education, question he announced that the Government had made up its mind to give free University education), bn&cd on success in scholarships, so that it would bo possible for every hright boy to go right through from the primary school to the University without payment of fees. If a scheme" could be put through that wculd not be too expensive, it would, he thought, prove of great value to the colony. (Applause.)

WELLINGTON, September 5. The debate was resumed this afternoon, and terminated shortly before five p.m. SIR HOGG. Mr Hogg, who was the first speaker i to-day, said that the Opposition had been all the time trying to kill the I Bills brought forward by the Governj ment. The Bills, however, had passed, 1 and now the Opposition w&re always | saying "put us in power and we will adopt all these children that we are ! trying to kill, and treat them as kindly as possible." Referring to the land question he said it had been responsible in other countries for "rivers of blood, murders innumerable, bitter animosd["ties" and various other terrible results, and New Zealand should avoid falling into tho same mistake. He regarded the

right to the freehold as a danger to settlement, and ho combatted the statement that tho 999 yeans' lease waa of no use by saying that he knew of cases in the North Island where tho goodwill of land held nnder this tenure could not be obtained for less than from £10 to £15 an acre.

Wheat Mr Hogg resumed his seat no ono seemed at all diesirous of continuing the debate, and the Premier was called upon by the Speaker to reply.

THB PREMIER'S REPLY. At the commencement Sir Joseph Ward remarked that the Leader of the Opposition had commenced his remarks by saying that there wore many matters in tho Budget with which he agreed, and which he would support. That was the highest compliment that could come from the Leader of tho Opposition when his budget proposals came before the House and the couovtry. He wished only to review some of the criticisms made by the honourable gentleman and his colleagues on the financial proposals in the Budget. Tho Leader of tho Opposition must have beeoi, pressed very hard for some reason to'find fault when he fixed upon the proposed alterations with regard to financial matters. When he fell back upon tho system of post-audit instead of pro-audit tlie Leader of the Opposition was on very thin ice. because lie had already indicated that be was avierse to the absence of that detailed information which was necessary for a careful discussion of the financial position. The difference between the system of the pro-audit as obtaining in New Zealand and post-audit as in Canada, was that in Canada the whole responsibility was on the individual Minister and the Ministry as a whole for any payment they might make. A payment was not stopped by the Audit Department in the first instance atoll. The post-audit system, as carried out in Canada, might extend over twelve or eighteen months after the payment had been made. It involved this important principle—that in Canada* every payment was made by the Minister and was paid in the first case whether right or wrong. The time for the check was after the payment had gone through. In New Zealand, on the contrary, the Audit Department stepped in and checked the payment before it was made. Evenupon authorised expenditure the Controller and Auditor-General could step im and stop a payment before it was allowed to go> through on behalf of the Government. While the Leader of the Opposition was anxious to see every name and every amount recorded and placed on the table of the House for the information of members, as a matter of fact, if they adopted the system of post-audit, which he advocated, they mi "lit not get the information until the second session after the payment® were mad©. They might hare to wait for a year or eighteen months. That being so, there was a material difference between, the two systems. He had long ago said that he favoured tlie post-audit system,. as he believed it would be a better thing, but he did not want any member to suppose that it would bo a check prior to payment upon what any Minister thought fit to pay, because it was the very reverse. It'was n matter wortihy of consideration by Parliament and the country as a whole whether or not they should make that change.

Mr Massey committee.''

Refer it to a special

' Sir Joseph Ward: "I will look into the matter in any case; but I advis© members, if the change is made, not to run away with tho idea that they can get the detailed information with names air.d amounts within anything like a reasonable period after the c.nd of the financial year." Continuing, Sir Joseph eaid he wished to make a reference to the keeping of the public accounts. ■ It was a fact, a-r.d he repented it now, that there had never been an administration in New Zealand that had interfered with responsible officers of the Treasury m making up the accounts of the colony. There had never been a Colonial Treasurer in the history of New Zealand who had done more than lay dowin a policy and a system upon which the work was to be carried on. At any rate, there had never been such an officer during the Ballance and Seddon Administration'?, or in the present one so far, nor would there be any interference by any member of the Ministry with an officer of the Department as to how he should make up or keep his accounts. So there could be "no reflection upon the Government, and It fell '■rttber on well-tried officers of the highest integrity. Honourable membens could not disguise the fact that all the expenditure of the Department was audited by the Audit Department. It was the receipts of the Department which had not been audited. In tliis connection the cry had gone out that there might be doubt as to the methods of these Impairments, and it was in crdor to dispel the possibility of oven

insinuations—no. he would not say insinuations, but doubts—that he intended to place these Departments under the control of the Auditor-General. This being done, they sho_& hear no more of that cry oanoerning tho position of the Audit Department in relation to other public Departments of the colony. Sir Joseph expressed his deep reeret that the Leader of the Opposition had deemed it Tiecessary to discuss the raising of the million loan. He gave tho impression that the reason the Government did not go to London was that its credit was not good enough to go on that market. Such a statement, ccining from the Leader of the Opposition, was calculated to do very serious damage to the credit of the colony. He (the speaker) was personally familiar with the notation of that loan, because the late Premier, who had been away from JYellington, had given him autubrity to deal with the matter. He had no hesitation in saying it was not desirable to go to London. There had for a long time past been a tendency on the part of certain people io discredit the financial operations ,of New Zealand in the older world. For a long time an effort had been made to indicate that New Zealand had done something wrong in connection with the Midland Railway debenture-holders. (Mr Hornsby: "Hear, hoar.") There were some responsible people in financial .circles in London who believed the colony had done something wrong, but he declared with the fullest knowledge of the facts that the colony never did any wrong to the debenture-holders. The country was not responsible for carrying on the railway in the nreat instance. Certain authorities were given by the House to tho directors, and because they did not carry out those powers.and there were continual disputes between the shareholders and the debenture-holders, the Government refused to allow the country to bo improperly mulcted in a large sum of money for which it was in no way responsible. Finally it did a very just, generous and right thing in settling the Midland Railway debentures, but after acting honourably towards the debenture-holders, they found there had been a continual desire in the Old Country to create the impression that the colony had not acted faithfully in its obligations to the debenture-holders.

Mr Hornsby: "They are mot satisfied jet." Sir Joseph Ward: They are not satisfied yet, and because in carrying on the business of the country the Government had made up its mind to raise money in the best possible way, and to the beet possible advantage, and there was an opportunity of raising the whole million between Australia and New Zealand without going to London, surely as a self-governing country, and as a self-respecting people, they had a right to discriminate and select the place where they could gjet their money on the best terms possible, without any invidious criticisms of this kind. Fault had been found that Victoria had rased a loan at 3 per cent., and New South Wales are at 3i per cent, and the net differenoe was comparatively nil.

Mr Massey: "No, I did not say that." Sir Joseph Ward: No,he said when worked out it would be a half per cent. difference. Surely the hon. member was not prepared to say how much the Government oould have got for its 3 per cant, or 3J per cent, loams, or what the circumstances were at that time, because he could not do so. How many members of the House had realised for a long time that it was better to underwrite a loan at 1 per oent. at a cost of £10,000 when it could be floated at slightly over par. They calculated they could float tho loam at under pax covering all expenses, including the underwriting rato of 1 per oent. If this country could obtain a 4 per cent, loan at par alt a time when there were a great many applioatione for money im the ollder world, and also in. Australia, then he asked" honourable members if the Government was not justified im getting the money as tihey had done, with no dislocation, of finance inprivate channels in the colony. Wero they not justified in doing so, rather than go on the London money market to make terms which people had no ri_ht whatever to ask. What about tho other £500.000 that was raised without any expense at allP—no advertising, no underwriting, and no payment to the extent of a penny postage stamp. Mr Herriea: "Through the colony P" Sir Joseph Ward: "Yes, thxouah the colony's representative in Australia.." At tne time of the flotation of the million loan im two portions of £600.000 each, the Government wae advised from London that there could be no hope of a satisfactory flotation until tbe February succeeding. Our loan wa* floated' at £1 16* premium, and yielded £1 16s lid. or about two shillings over par. At the same time Victoria's 31 per cent, loan cost that Government £4 2s 9d. so there was a very material differenoe *vhen they came to oompare the two loans. Now, far be it for him to suggest to the Leader of the Opposition that he did not know tbe> proper way to criticise what came bofore the House from the Government benches, but the Leader of the Opposition conceived' it to be his duty to condemn, everything that same from the Government. In assuming that attitude, he was wrong. There w«re some important matters in which tnere notild be no attempt to score off the Government, for thereby they only deteriorated the value of Government securities And hampered them in carrying out the affairs of tho colon v. If the Leader of thej Opposition had been on the Government benches at> the time of the flotation of this loan, and had adopted a different course, he would have gone on a worse road. Financial critics agreed that the Government's operation had been a good one, and that being so, there would bo io kws of dignity on the part of the horn gentleman in eulogising the Government for tho action it had taken in regard to this matter. (Applause.) Now, as to the surplus, the Leader of the Opposition had endeavoured to discount the value of that surplus. He had stated that there was a sum of £20,000 transferred from the Public Trust Office to the Consolidated Fund for tho erection of a new building in Wellington l , and that if this amount wore deducted the surplus would be less. That was absoluteay contrary to fact. There was no such transfer. If members would refer to tho Estimates this year they would find an item of £15,000 for the erection of a building in Wellington.. That amount was on the Estimates last year, and! on the Estimates again this year. It had never been drawn upon, so the lion, gentleman was wrong in his deduction. Mr Massey: "I am perfectly right." Sir Joseph Ward: "No. wrong." The hon. gentleman maintained that the surplus should have been £20,000 less. Well, he was only getting into a worse bog than ever, because the amount had never been paid into the Consolidated Fund at all.

Mr Massey: "It was paid last year." Sir Joseph. Ward: "It was not." Mr Massey: "Then the accounts are wrong." Sir Joseph Ward: "You are wrong again. The accounts are right, and the hon. gentleman is wrong." The amount remained in the Consolidated Fund, and was again on the Estimates this year. In connection with that building there had not been a penny piece of it spent at aU. Then, vn regard to the teachers' superannuation fund, the hon. gentleman had asked what was ths attitude now of the two Ministers who, as private members, had urged the payment of £17,000 into the fund to make it actuarially sound, and why that had not been done. In reference to superannuation funds, it was generally Teoognised that the scheme of superannuation for the Public Departments should be given effect to. The chief line of argument of hon. members opposite was the insecurity of

the fund, but the Government was going on exactly tne same lines as was touowed by the great English railway companies. He read extracts from the Lancashire Company's scheme to show its solvency. That company, after thirtyrtliree years' operation, had introduced lezislation into the House of Commons to give its employees a very much more advanced superannuati-cn scheme than wo had in New Zealand. He asked the Loader of the Opposition whether he believed that men who occupied responsible positions in these companies, and who wero returned as representatives of the shareholders, whether, after such a period, they would bring down still more advanced proposals if the scheme was an insolvent one? He repeated that the whole question of superannuation came back to one material point—the difference between what actuaries said and where the Government came in with its guarantee. " Mr Baume: "Have you converted tho two Ministers?" Sir Joseph Ward: "We propose in due course to submit our general superannuation scheme, and I think it will commend itself favourably to the House." He asked hon. members not to advocrdc a edieme in one breath, and in the next breath to raise impassible barriers in connection with it. (Applause.) The Leader of the Opposition., in referring to the loan conversion operations, had referred to tho necessity tor "keeping the paper afloat." This was a most extraordinary statement to make. When they were converting, as in this case, from a higher to a lower rate of interest, it was ridiculous to talk about "keeping tho paper afloat." The hon. member had said that whilst the conversion operations cost £40,613, there was not a sinjrlo farthing to 6how for it in the way of assets. (Mr Massey: Hear, hear.) Sir Joseph Ward sajd'vhat was an extrato say, that the moment conversion to a lower rate of interest took place these assets were no longer behind it. Continuing, Sir Joseph said that Mr Massey had suggested that they should borrow less money. The hon. member, however, admitted that railways, roads, and other public works must go on. Ho admitted the necessity for the extension of telephones, and ho believed he also admitted the necessity for borrowing under tho Lands for Settlement Act. What was the use of a practical man saying this in one breath, and declaring in another that they should borrow less money? Did tho hon. member suggest that they should borrow less than a million?

Mr Massey: "No, I do not." Sir Joseph Ward: "Well, that fixes ono point." Mr Massey: "Give tho settlers tho right to the freehold and you won't need to borrow to purchase estatea."

Sir Joseph Ward said that tho hon. gentleman -talked about the freeholdl but until the freehold came he must recognise that it was necessary to luave money to purchase estates. Ho did not deny that money must be had for the various other public purposes, and if tho hon. gentleman wore fair to himself, ho would stand up and admit that the Budget proposals were reasonable and modest (because he agreed with the borrowing of a million for public works), and he would also say, "I would like to condemn the proposals, but I admit that in view of the prosperity of tho oolony, it is impossible to do that." If the hon. gentleman would do that he would be paving the way for that happy time when the elimination of his party must take place. Mr Hcrries had asked what was going to be done in regard to paying off Treasury Bills, and whether it was proposed to create freshl debentures. What the Government proposed to do was to pay off certain sums from time to time out of the Consolidated Fund, and thus completely work them off.

Speaking in regard to the tone of the debate, Sir Joseph Ward said that there had been nothing in tho criticism of the members opposite to which exception could be taken. The tone, of the debate was very fine. It was a, pleasure to hear the criticism of tho Leader of the Opposition, and also to listen to the powerful speech delivered by the Minister for Lands- in reply. (Hear, hear.) He had no hesitation in saying that as the result of the explanations given by the Minister for Lands, the many erroneous ideas in regard to tho Government land policy which had been placed before the people of the colony would be entirely removed. (Hear, hear.) It had- been said that the Government would mot submit proposals of a concrete character in regard to the land question, and that it had no sincere desire to settle tho question l . He could only reaffirm that the Government was not only sincere in the matter, but that it was "determined" to have tho question settled in the way they had proposed. (Hear, hear.) If any members believed that the Government was going to shirk its responsibilities in this matter by entrenching itself behind any system of excuses they were making a very serious mistake. He would sooner be in a minority or in a very small majority tlhan go along under any suoh system of expediency. (Hear, hear.) The Government recognised l that the people of the country hod a night to have their voices heard on this question, and when tho time cams it would be quite prepared to have its policy placed before the people. There would be no "shilly-shallying" and no attempt to steer two cour&es upon) the land tenure question, and he had no fear as to the judgment of the people of tho colony wflien the question was put before them.

Referring to the Land for Settlement policy, he asked how many members were prepared: to go on as at present borrowing £750,000 a year for the purchase of fresh estates, in, addition to the four and a half millions already thus invested.. It was the duty of the Government to place upon, tlie Statute Book am improved scheme financially such as it was now proposed to put there. If the late Premier had been in 'his place to-day ho would have no doubt done what they were now doing. An Hon. Member: "No foar."'

Sir Joseph Ward eaid that up till recently it was absolutely necessary that tho present system should continue, but they could not keep on raising £750,000 a year for the purpose of purchasing estates in the way they had been doing. The late Premier would never have gone on borrowing £750,000 a year without providing some complete system for curtailing their liabilities.

Tho late Premier, Sir Joseph continued, would never have submitted proposals for allowing tho Crown tenants the option of acquiring the freehold at the original valuation, plus some slight increase for improvements, as urced by some members. Those members who wero clamouring for the freehold must know that even if a majority of freeholders were returned by the country, there would be no ch.3nce of getting such a system assented te by Parliament. What, he asked, was the use of attempting to mislead the people of the country and the tenants of Crown lands and Land for Settlement leases? It was far better to reaKse before raising the cry of the freehold that rsuch a policy would never go through Parliament. The Parliament was bound as a body of sensible men to give an alternative system to get people of little means, and of no means at all, upon the land, and it was bound to take steps to prevent the aggregation of large estates which had done so much to damage the quick settlement of the colony. An Hon. Member: "But this is Wason'e scheme."

The Premier: "If it is Wason's scheme, all the more credit to Wason. but 1 havo never seen it before, and I am certain the Minister for Lands lias not seen it nor has any member of this House." It might, however, be

a good one, or the Opposition would not want to give tho credit to Mr Wason. 'He maintained that in the Government proposals there was a scheme to give the freehold on such a scalo as had never before been proposed. „„ Mr W. Fraser: "At whoso expense PThe Premier: "At nobody's expense." Tho £50,000 limitation would put the land on the market without force and without pressure, and without depreciation in value. An Opposition Member: "Absurd. The Premier went on to Tefer to The proposal to allow tenants with a 999 years' lease to* convert into a 66 years' lease, and the provisions under the latter system that would enable the tenants to get rid of that blot on their It nd system—interference on tho part of inspectors and Waste Land Boards. At the end of the 66 years they could get another GO years without interference on tho part oi anyone, with the excep-. tion of a revaluation at tho end of tho term. The system of the Glasgow lease had been urged by thousands of people in the cities.

Mr Massey: "But not in the country."

The Premier: "Many intelligent people think that should apply to the country. You will find some of the most far-6ighted men in the cities advocating the Glasgow lease and urging it against, any other system you could give them in the towns." H they advocated that in tho cities, why should they create any doubt about giving a lease of 132 years, with valuation for improvements, why oast doubt on suoh a liberal lease as that? In addition, they were giving tho people the right to hold on to their 999 years' leases if they did not wish to convert. He referred to the other liberal proposals that would enable oity men, business men, traders with small capital, or workmen, if they wanted to get out of tho towns, to lead a quiet life in the country. The sinking fund proposals would enable them to build up a great liberal land policy in> the interests of all classes in the colony.

He urged hon. members to approach tho matter in a practical way and to disabuse their minds of tlie idea that the freehold was tho solution of the land problem. The Ministry, he said, would not be above takimg any reasonable suggestions with the idea of making their Bill more workable, and when it came before the Lands Committee they would find that tbe Minister for Lands, as a practical man, would be prepared to discuss it impartially and fairly, recognising that it was of vital importance tliat the fight that had been.going on around the land tenure should cease. It was in the truest interests of the colony that it should cease and tho Government wanted to end it. Thay would not, however, end it by xelim-. quishing any of their eolf-respecfc by going back on the principles they had enumerated. Having settled this matter they could devote themselves to other questions thai would help forward the material progress and prosperity of the people as a whole. He asked the Leader of the Opposition to !re*niiOTC/ the cdbwebst from his eyes (laughter from the freeholders') and assist in placing a liberal land law upon the Statute- Book—a law that they would not need to change in ten, fifteen., or twenty years, but one that would be on a basis of bed rock and that would last for the next hundred yeans. (Applause). • Mr Massey rose to make a personal ■explanation. The late) Mr Sedldon, speaking on tho Financial Statement last year, said "Wo transferred £20,000 for the erection of a now building" (Trust office). Now, would tho hon, fentleman admit he was wrong? That uilding had not been cone on with, and if the money had been, paid for it the surplus would havo been £20.000 less.

Sir Joseph Ward: "Before I made the statement I did, I communicated! with the Treasury."

Mr Massey: "I care nothing about the Treasury; tho late Premier made the statement."

Sir Joseph Ward repeated that the £20,000 referred to had been paid into the Consolidated Fund, in accordance with tha Act. If 'the hon. gentleman turned to this year's Estimates, he would find an item of £15,000 for now premises at Wellington, tlie item having been carried from one year to another. , Tho House then went into Committee of Supply for consideration of the Estimates.

(special TO "TO- press.") "WELLINGTON, September 5. • The Financial Debate, whaoh had been oxpected by many members to laat for some three weeks, came to an unexpected torminataocn this afternoon-. Mr Hogg took lids full houir in speaking to sparsely-filled benches, and as no member rose when he Bat down, the Premier was called upon for hia reply. Had tiie debate extended over this evening, it would in aJI probability have been kept going for a fcrfonight at least. Several members had intended to give tiie House the benefit of their views, but in the expectation of a lengthy debate they allowed themselves to be caught napping. Several members were nbsenrt from their seats this afternoon gathering material for speeches to full galleries. Their ammunition, however, will now have to be reserved for another occasion.