HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Press, Volume LV, Issue 10148, 22 September 1898, Page 6

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met at 2.30 p.m. - THE LATE SIR GEORGE GREY. After formal business had been transacted, Mr SEDDON said that throughout the Empire to-day there would be great sorrow and general mourning. Australasia and the Cape Colony would ever remember the everlasting and beneficial service rendered by Sir George Grey. None would feel the parting so much as, and none would regret him more than, the people of New Zealand, to whom he had rendered such great services. He felt he was echoing the mind of the colony -when he said that tho greatest man that had ever been in the colony, and than whom no greater, in his opinion, would ever bo seen in the colony again, had passed away. Last year had been a year of rejoicing, and none had felt more rejoiced than Sir George Grey that he had lived to see tho Queen's Jubilee, but the year JB9B had been a year of mourning. England had to mourn Gladstone, and Germany Bismarck, and now those in Australasia to-day mourned the loss of tiheir greatest man, and tho greatest statesman there had ever been or probably would ever be in these latitudes. Sir George Grey had been the founder of Liberalism in Australasia, anjd his work was a lasting monument to his memory. He briefly referred to the more important events in the life of Sir George Grey, and, referring to his action in connection with the Maori war, said that the difficulty had been removed by *Sir George Grey's firmness, determination, and kindness at an early period. He had a thorough command of -he native race, and the love then created between the natives and Sir George Grey ever endured so long as be lived. After referring to Sir George Grey's labours with respect to the drawing up of the constitution for the colony, he pointed out that he had ever been sincere in helping the struggling and weak against the strong. In many instances throughout his long and distinguished career, he had been the champion of the rights and privileges of the people. Speaking of the period when Sir George Grey was Premier of the colony, he said it was questionable whether they would ever again have such a Premier or Minister. He referred at considerable lengtb. to the services rendered to the Empire by the dead statesman, and referring to their personal attitude to each other, he said since they had first met the greatest friendship nad existed between them. He moved, "That this House places on record its high appreciation of the beneficent and ever-en-during services rendered to the colony and the Empire by the late Right Hon. Sir •Ueorge Grey, X.C.8., and respectfully tenders to his relatives its sympathy with them in their irreparable loss. ' Captain RUSSELL, in seconding the motion, said when he looked back on his •early life his memory clung to the year 7™r Tf*"™* M a chiiA m tbj6 neighbo-rhood of Wellington, he had the honour and pleasure of making the acquaintance and enjoying the friendship of Sir George Grey. One most pathetic thing in connection with the lato statesman was (hat with all _jg lov.

for children, no child of his remained beliind him; but lus great name would live in the memory of the people of the colony. For fifty years Sir George Grey had been inseparably associated with New Zealand, and yesterday they had lost a great New Zealander, and the Empire had lost a great son, for whom the world would mourn ss well as a small section of New Zealand. Sir George Grey's had been a remarkable life. Born in the days when autocracy was rampant throughout Europe, he lived to see the powers of monarchy limited, democracy triumphant, and the privileges of the classes destroyed. To a great extent we in New Zealand claimed that the freedom of the people was attributed to his efforts. TKough Sir George Grey was autocratic by nature, he vet devoted himself to the services of the people. He had desired power in order to exercise it for the good of the people, and had been a veritable Caesar, wishing to base his power on the votes of the people in order to use that powei in the interests of the people themselves. It would be difficult for his contemiKtraries to estimate Sir George Grey's character. Future historians would be be better able to depict him, but no matter how people might differ politically, they could not help admiring him.

Mr SCOISIE MACKENZIE, in a briei appreciative speech, referred to Sir George Grey as the greatest figure that had filled the eye and imagination of New Zealanders

Mr HOLLAND referred to the services rendered by Sir George Grey to Auckland, and said his name would ever remain green in the memory of the people of Auckland and their children

Mr CARROLL referred to the high esteem in which Sir George Grey was held by th;? native race, who looked upon him in the light of a father.

Tiie motion was agreed to unanimously, mi<l the Hi>v,s-2 adjourned at 3.30 p.m. till 7.30 p.m.

EVENING SITTING. The Hr.use met at 7.30 p.m. The Old Age Pensions Bill was committed, Clause 1, short title;

Mr R. THOMPSON moved that progress be reported, and said it was an act of the greatest cowardice on the part of any Assembly to pass a measure committing the country to such enormous taxation and not provide the money to pay the pensions. His object in moving that progress be reported was to enable the Government to refer the question of t»lie providing of the funds to a fjelect Committee. He considered that the funds should bo raised by special legislation. Mi- HOGG contended that the last speaker took up the attitude of looking for a pension scheme which he could support, and praying that he mighb not find such a scheme.

Whilst Mr Hogg was speaking,, a stranger behind the bar of the House made offensive interjections, attention to which were drawn by Mr Crowther, and the Sergeant-at-Arms removed the offender.

Mr SEDDON said members who desired to consult the wishes of the Government would sit tight and! vote. He accused Mr Thompson of being timid with respect to the pensions scheme and the expenditure under it; but if the expenditure had been proposed on roads and bridges in the Auckland district, he would not show signs of timidity. The time- was past for enquiring where the money for the seneme was coming from. The money for this year was in the Treasury, and he had no hesitation in saying that the money would be there next year, and so long as Parliament was desirous of doing justice to the aged persons of the colony. There was no necessity for increased taxation to provide funds for the pensions, and the cry for such was intended to enlist the land owners against the scheme. After others had spoken, Mr ERASER pointed out that the crux of the Bill was clause 57, pro viding that pensions shall be permanent appropriations from the consolidated fund. He objected to this clause, as it took the control of the pensions out of the hands of the House.

Mr TAYLOR said the clause was a fatal blunder, especially in view of the fact that the Assembly was year after year being shorn of its control over the expenditure. The details of the measure would have to be altered from time to time, and when amendments were proposed' the House should be in a position to discuss the whole subject. . Mr SEDDON said it was a monstrous doctrine which had been propounded by Mr Taylor. If Parliament, supported by the will of the people, had passed a law, it should not be left in the power of one branch, of the Legislature to say that the moneys to give effect to its provisions should not be forthcoming. , Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE poinfed out that the same argument would apply with respect to the education expenditure, though no attempt was made to interfere with that expenditure. The pensions should be annual appropriationj, in order that the House should be in a position to criticise the administration of the scheme. In his opinion, all the clauses in the Bill should be struck out, with a view of inserting a scheme providing for universal contributions and universal pensions. Mr SEDDON pointed out that the honorariums of members were a permanent charge, and this was conducive to the independence of members. The State once having recognised the claims of the old age pensions, their pensions should be placed beyond the control of a private member to interfere with them.

Mr MONTGOMERY said he was in favour of the Bill, and would like to see the appropriations Under it made annually, bub if the Bill could not be amended in this respect, he would nevertheless vote for its third reading.

Mr SLIGO said that with the present income of the colony, ib was absurd to think that the provisions of the Bill could be carried, out without placing further burdens on the country. After further discussion, Air R. THOMPSON said the Government evidently wanted to put an Old Age Pensions Act on the Statute Book and then let the colony look after itself as best ib could with respect to its finances.

The PREMIER suggested, after further discussion, that in order to make some progress the machinery clauses of the Bill should be passed, when he was willing to report progress. Mr WASON said the Premier should confer with the leader of the Opposition and Mr Taylor in order that some understanding might be arrived at on the measure. After further discussion, a motion to report progress was negatived by 35 votes to 25.

Captain RUSSELL mdved that "Old Age Pensions" be struck out of the first clause with a view of inserting "Charitable Institutions Extensions Bill." He said there was no necessity to explain the amendment, as it explained itself. Mr GEO. HUTCHISON said the Premier knew the Bill was to extend, the system of charitable aid, but wanted to have the credit of having passed the first Old Age Pensions Bill in the British Dominions.

The amendment was negatived by 34 votes to 24.

Mr CARSON moved to strike out the word "pensions" and insert "relief." " This was negatived by 30 votes to 23, and the clause was agreed to. Mr WASON moved that progress be reported. Mr SEDDON urged that all clauses down to, and inclusive of, clause 6, should be passed. Several members considered this was unreasonable-

Mr SEDDON said that not only that night, but time after time, the business of the country had been blocked, and whether intentionally or accidentally, the fact remained that half the session was gone and no business had been done. His demands, he said, were not unreasonable. If majorities were not to rule, it meant the introduction of the closure.

Mr TAYLOR—You cannot carry the closure in this House.

Mr SEDDON, continuing, said that as matters were at present, though he was not going to propose or advocate it—indeed, he objected to it—yet if the business of the country was to be done, the closure would have to be introduced.

Captain RUSSELL said the Premier had entirely mistaken the position. As his Eerves were so thoroughly upset, he was unable to take a judicial view of the matter. He (Capta-n Russell) was always anxious to facilitate business.

The motion was negatived by 27 votes to

Clause 2, interpretation. On the motion of Captain RUSSELL, the definition of "income" was amended to inelode 'Valuable ooaaidentaoas."

Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE moved to report progress. This was carried by 27 votes to 25. The House rose at 1.50 a.m.