THE ELECTORAL BILL

Press, Volume L, Issue 8584, 11 September 1893, Page 6

THE ELECTORAL BILL

liVTERVIEWS WITH SIR R. STOUT AND MR.DOffNIE STEWART. THEIR OPINIONS ON THE POSITION. [Bt Telkgraph.] {feom our special cobeesposdkxt). WELLINGTON, September 9. There Beera3 to be a widespread feeling that the Government, by refusing to agree to forthwith consider the amendments made in the Electoral Bill contemplate some hostile move either in the direction of going to the country on the licensing question, and thus preventing women enrolling in time for tbe general election or else ia inducing the Governor to reserve his assent on the ground that a grave constitutional change ia proposed to be effected. A3 both rumours are being industriously circulated, I sought an interview this morning with Sir R. Stout to obtain his opinion on the constitutional phase of the matter, and my request was urbanely complied with. I asked whether the action of the Premier in moving that the consideration of the amendments made should be deferred till Monday did not take him by surprise ?

Sir Robert β-iid—" Yes ; I cannot understand why the Government should not have considered the amendments forthwith. The amendments made, save one, are purely literal and were put in by the AttorneyGeneral. They do not affect the sense of the Bill at all. There is one amendment which enabled the rolls to be prepared before dissolution under the new Representation Act. This amendment was intended to have been put in another Bill, but the Government inserted it in the Bill themselves in the Upper House. Ib also do~s not affect the principle of the Bill in any respect. Then there was a short amendment to the schedule making the poll close at Eden at seven o'clock. The Bill when it passed through Committee in the Lower House had Eden in the schedule, but Mr Mitchelson, representing the district, asked that as it was a country electorate the hour of polling there should be changed to six, and this wa9 agreed to on recommittal. In the Upper House, however, the hour of seven was restored on the motion of Mr Jennings, in consequence of representations from the Eden electorate, the Colonial Secretary assenting to the alteration, and therefore no objection can be raised by his colleagues. Practically, therefore, the Bill is the same as when it left the Representative Chamber, save what may be termed literal alterations. The fact that the Premier did not at once accept the Bill, of course, gives point to the persistent rumours that are astir in the lobbies that the Government really do not desire the Bill to pass, and their action cannot be regarded as other than a tactical blunder. Then, again, we are face to face with the fact that of twelve new members appointed during the recess six opposed the Bill on the third reading, and one or two of the other Councillors who generally cote with the Government, and who no doubt would have voted with the Government on this occasion had they been asked, also opposed the Bill in its final stage. I hare no fear of the Bill, because the amendments will be accepted by the Lower House, and the Governor is bound to assent to it. It is not one of the measures that the Royal instructions provide should be reserved."

"But," interposed I, "if Ministers are really desirous, as many members eeem to infer, that the Bill shall not become law at once, would not his Excellency be bound to accept their advice if they recommend the Bill to be reserved for the Queen's assent ? "

Sic Robert—" I do not believe that tbe Government would venture, on the eve of a general -election, to maka>sucb a recommendation, however much some of them may dislike the Bill, and they will not get- the Appropriation Bill passed till the Electoral Bill has been assented to. There is a duty cast on the Speaker to hold the Appropriation Bill till the Electoral Bill has been assented to. There is a duty cast on'the Speaker to hold the Appropriation Bill till all the Bills passed by both Houses daring the session have been assented to by the Governor. As an illustration of this may be mentioned the Land 'Bill in 1887. Sir George Grey, then Premier, advised the Governor not to assent to the Land Bill as he disagreed with its provisions. The Speaker (Mr Fitzherbert) declined to give iip the Appropriation Bill till the Land Bill was assented to, and, of course, tbe Government could not go to the country without the supplies provided by the Appropriation Bill," " Tbe Premier of the Empire," I venture to point out, " was an opponent to woman's suffrage, and might; not Lord Glasgow, as his nominee, decline of his own motion to assent to a Bill doubling the franchise in that direction ?" ( "I don't know anything about that," was the member for Inangahua's reply," " but I have no doubt the Governor will eventually act as bis Ministers recommend. If, however, they wished the Bill reserved, and his Excellency refused to accept their advice ifr would be constitutionally their duty to resign, but, as I have said, he would not be likely to act contrary to their advice." " Supposing that Ministers recommend that the Electoral Bill be reserved for the Royal asseut?" "The House would not stand that for a moment, and the difficulty with regard to the Appropriation Bill and Supplies would arise."

" Sou showed a little heat in tha House last night, Sir Robert, because the Premier refused to consider the amendments to the Electoral Bill forthwith. What was the view held by yourself and others as to the need for haate ?'

" The reason why I wished-consideration not put back till next sitting day—Monday night at the earliest—was the injury to the women of the colony by the delay. The Government may decide to prorogue at auy moment, and force on the elections as speedily as possible. In that case the women of the country would not have time to" register— the women of the country especially, though those in towns might."

Before the interview closed I reminded Sir R. Stout that he had stated in the House the previous night that we were within eight or ten days of prorogation; had he authority for this assertion? because the view generally held by the Government supporters was that the. session would last till the cud of the month.

" They ought to have better opportunities of knowing," replied Sir R. Scout with his silvery laugh, " but it has been stated in the lobbies during the last day or two that the end was near, and that the Government only wanted supply before hurriedly putting up the shutters."

With the significant remark "We shall see *' we parted company, Sir Robert to attend his Court duties, and your representative to telegraph his views on the present interesting position to his many readers.

September 10. Mr Downie Stewart also has been good enough to favour mc with his views on the constitutional position of the Electoral Bill and the probable attitude of Lord Glasgow with respect to the protest from the minority of the Council, and as to the probabilities of the measure being reserved for the Royal assent: —

" This ia not one of tho class of Bills which requires to be reserved by the Governor ; it is one on which he is bound to exercise his own individual discretion as to whether he will assent or not, and if his Ministers advise him not to assent, and he is satisfied he ought to do so, he is bound to assent to the BilL There is no reason in thi3 case why the Bill having passed both branches of the Legishvlature should cot be assented to by his Excellency in the ordinary way, and the responsibility of showing that he is justified in refusing his assent would rest upon him. lam quite satisfied tbere. is no reason why the Governor should entertain any doubt as to assenting to the Bill, as it is not one affecting in any way Crown rights, but is one especially for the two branches of the Legislature to deal with. I do not think he is bound to act upon the advice of his Ministry in the question as, in giving assent to a Bill of this kind, all he is concerned to know ia whether Parliament has p<*saed a Bill Hiealiug with the question within their jurisdiction and affecting the colony only."

"Aβ to the protest by the dissenting

Lords—is that likely to arrest the Bill becoming law ?" I queried. Mr Stewart —"Our Standing Orders enable a dissenting minority to enter a protest with the object simply to enable the Government, as representing the Crown, to know what state parties are in in the Council. The Governor cannot take judicial notice of Hansard as not being a publication known to the law, and can only look to the journals of the Council. The object of the protest is to give the Governor the official reasons for inducing the dissenting minority to oppose tbe passing of the Bill. This is the only official manuer in which the state of parties can be communicated to him. There is no reason, n> this iustanee, which can be urged against the Governor assenting to the Electoral Bill, as the grounds urged by the minority are only such as might affect any legislation dealing with such a question as is involved in the Bill. • If it, could be shown there had been auy unfair proceedings oa the part of the majority by which the Bill had been canied, tuen, the minority are entitled to bring these circumstances under the notice of tue Governor, but no such proceedings have arisen in this case. The right of protest is merely to bring before the Governor offi jially circumstances showing that the minority had been unfairly treated, and that the question is one which the Council had improperly passed by some abuse of power. No snch grounds can be suggested in the present instance, and the Governor is bound under the Royal instructions, to assent to the Bill unless be is satisfied that it doe 3 not properly express the opinion of the Council, which canuot be suggested in this instance. In the House of Lords there ia an analogous right of protest, and technically the proceedings there should be communicated to the Queen day by day by the Lord Chancellor, but there is no instance in which a mere protest has been given effect to Avhere the proceedings have been regular, as in this case. This is the first instance in New Zealand where a minority .of the Council, have used their right of protest to the Viceroy."

Asked whether there would not be valid grounds for refusing supply if the Electoral .bill were not brongut up for consideration ?

Mr Stewart replied—" Iα the event of the Ministry refusing to present the Electoral Bill to the Governor for his assent he would be justified in refusing to submit the Appropriation Bill to Parliament until all measures passed by both branches of Legislature, including the Electoral Bill, had been presented to him for his consideration, to enable him to decide whether he should assent to* or decline to assent to any particular Bill. In 1877 Sir G. Grey, displeased with the Land Bill passed that year, advised the Governor to refuse his assent to the Bill aud refused to attach.his name to the final certificate recommending the Governor to assent to it. . The Marquis of Normanby demurred to this course, and insisted ou the Ministry carrj-jng out the will of the Legislature, . saying that he saw no reason why . the unusual course of vetoing the measure should be exercised by him. It ia only in the most exceptional circumstances that the Governor would be justified in vetoing a Bill passed by both brandies of the Legislature, and as this is a Bill dealing essentially with the House of Representatives, it is peculiarly one in which the technical right of veto should not be exercised. According to Todd, when Bills are tendered to the Governor of a colony for the purpose of receiving the Royal assent he is bound to exeicise his.discretion with regard to the same, and to determine upon his own responsibility as an Imperial officer, unfettered by any consideration of advice which he has received, as to the course he ought to pursue in respect to such Bills, whether to grant or withhold the Royal assent or to reserve any particular Bill for the signification of the Royal pleasure thereon. In this instance there is no exceptional circumstance which would entitle the Governor to withhold assent."

"But, taking the extreme case of supposing that the Governor should reserve his assent to so revolutionary a change in parliamentary franchise, would the House be justified in refusing supplies till the fate of the measure was known i" *"■ •

" If the Governor refused his assent," replied Mr Stewart, "or withheld his consent, the House has power to refuse to pass supply, but this should only be resorted to in an extreme case, and where there is an abuse of power by the Governor in refusing his assent to any measure. As to the main issue I am satisfied that the carrying of female franchise is a surprise to the Government, that they were not as a Government m sympathy with it, and that they used what influence they possessed with the Council to kill it. The supporters of women's franchise had great difficulty in deciding as to what amendment proposed by its friends in the Council should be accepted. The danger was that if amendments were proposed by these gentlemen and rejected it, might alienate their support to the third reading, and every effort was made to conciliate those who were known to be favourable to the Bill by getting them either not to propose their own amendments, or to accept the rejection of them- in the best spirit. It was known that parties were very evenly divided, and the supporters of the movement could not run any risk which might endanger the Bill. Up till shortly before the Council met on Friday the supporters of the Bill thought they would have a majority of three or four, but soon after we believed we were in a minority of-two, as it was known tjhat Captain Baillie did not intend to support the Bill, and that Mr Kelly, who had paired iv the first. instance in its favour, had revoked bis pair and left the pair against the measure. This greatly upset our calculations, more especially as the votea of Messrs Holmes, Stevens, and Reynolds were doubtful. Until Mr Holmes spoke the supporters of the Bill did not know how it was going, and though it was believed that*Mr Stevena was friendly to woman's franchise, yet holding the strong opinions he did on the question of electoral rights, it was quite uncertain bow he would vote. Mr Reynolds preserved absolute silence till he declared in the House his intention of giving us his assistance, and then we saw tbe cause was safe, and that the crucial division would confound our enemies. What we were afraid of after Mr., Stevens spoke was that Mr Reynolds would vote •on the other side, in which case the voting would have been equal, and the Speaker would have given his casting vote against' the Bill. I felt satisfied that constitutionally the Speaker would have been justified in exercising his right of veto, and as his opinion is decidedly adverse to female franchise he would have voted against the Bill unless constitutionally compelled to support it. It was therefore all important that Mr Millar should not have the opportunity of exercising his veto." "Then yon apprehend little danger, if any, of the Bill becoming law and women being enfranchised in time for the coming elections ? "

Mr Stewart—" Women, of course, cannot go on the roll till the Bill has become law, bub it is extremely important that they should be ready to go on the roll so soon as the assent of the Governor is notified. | Although Parliament does not expire by the efflaxion of time till December, the Government might be advised to dissolve the present Parliament at an earlier date, and the writs might be issued immediately afterwards, and, from the issue of the writs no names can be added to the electoral roll. Therefore the danger lies not so much in the Bill not passing, but in this event of it passing, Parliament being suddenly dissolved, and the writs for the new Parliament being issued. This would have the effect of keeping off all women not then registered. It is important, therefore, that all women who wish to exercise the right of voting ehould be ready as soon as the Bill has been assented to, to apply to have their names put on the roll." In conclusion Mr Stewart said he was extremely hopeful that each woman elector will exercise her own judgment as to the candidate for whom she will vote; that she will not be influenced by any block vote on secondary or side issues, and that as many women aa possible will register and record their votes, so that there may be full expression of the opinion of the adult inhabitants of the colony as to the persons who should represent them. It his only been by daily, in fact, hourly, watching the interests of the Bill that it has been carried, and women have now a splendid opportunity of showing whether they are capable of exercising the franchise in a fair, impartial spirit in the interests of the colony as a whole.

[PHSSS ASSOCIATION TBL3OBAH.] WELLINGTON. September 9. The following protest i* being signed by

members of the Legislative Cotmcil who voted against the third reading of the Electoral BUI, for the purpose of being forwarded t-D the Governor: — " We, the undersigned members of the Legislative Council of New Zealand, protest against the vote of the Council in favour of the thurd reading of the Electoral BUI, which provides for giving franchise to women, on the ground that this political and social revolution has been carried on the eve of a general election, although the principle of such an important ch&nge in the constitution has pot been submitted to the electors for their decision on the subject."