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PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thursday, May 30, 1872. The Speaker took the chair at 5 p ffl PETITION. Mr Knight presented a petition h_ m large number of the inhabitants of the L" * coin and Springs districts praying that th" Hue of light railway or tramway to South bridge should start from the RacecrT,." Station instead of from Rolleston. a The petition was read and received PAPERS. The Provincial Secretary laid several papers on the table. Wtt question. Mr Richardson said he wished to ask question without notice. It would be in th & recollection of h6n. members that at a publi meeting which waa recently held in Christ 0 church, a railway employe named Irvinp made certain statements, and Bince then the same had thought fit to iuscrt an advertise, meut in oue of the morning papers reflecting on a large number of members of the House He (Mr Richardson) was Burprieed to b<m that mau still on the railway. [Hear, hear") He wished to ask whether the Government had taken any notice of Irving's action. The Provincial SECRETARY—Sir: The attention of the Government was called to this matter shortly after it had occurred, and they made enquiry both of the Manager and the man himself, whether he was the person who spoke at the meeting to which th. ton member refers, and also whether he wag' the person who inserted the advertisement to which the hon. member alludes. Tho Manager reported to tho Government that the mau referred to was the second etoraiaan in the import shed at Christchurch, and ho it was who spoke at the meeting. Irving, oa being asked, admitted he was the man, and that he had inserted the advertisement in the Press. The Executive considered that this was a serious matter, and felt it to bo so subversive of all rules and regulations which govern the relations between employer and employed that they advised His Honor the Superintendent that Irving should be dismissed from the employ of the Governmeut. His Honor, however, has not thought fit to carry out the advice which the Executive tendered to him. RAILWAY MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE. Mr Knight brought up the report of this Committee, which was read, as follows :— " The select committee appointed to inquire into the general management of tho railways begs to bring up the following report : — " The committee has had before it memoranda and evidence bearing upon the following questions relating to the management of the department, with the instructions issued to the General Manager iv respect thereto :— " Monthly Reports. " Instructions were given in November for monthly reports to be forwarded to the Government, but none were furnished' until April 2, nearly five months afterwards, .triwa a specimen only was sent. " 2. Drunkenness. " In October a circular was directed to be forwarded to all station-masters on this subject, but this was not done until nearly b_x weeks afterwards, and not until after tha Government had made inquiries on the sub. ject, " Requisitions for Stores. " These were directed to be sent in quarterly. One was returned in November, but no other was sent until April 29, and after the Government (on the 27th of Maroh)had again called for returns. "4. Tickets. " Stock was to be taken at irregular intervals by some one other than tho. accountant or General Manager, but tha accountant took stock and the General Manager checked it. V i. O)l : . "5. Estimates. " The Government asked for these on November 3rd, December 9th, and December 18th, but they were not famished till December 20th. " 6. Reduction of Wageß. " Full instructions were issued, hut owing to misapprehension thereof, they were not carried out in their integrity. .... . " The committee is of opinion that the explanations given by the General Manager of his reasons for not acting as directed in the cases referred to above are unsatisfactory; that he has failed to comprehend the instmctions issued to him, and has not compiled with them fully and promptly. , "The committee finds that the instructions given by the Governmentto the General Manager respecting the notices' hr the reduction of wages and the re-engagement of the men, were sufficiently clear, and had he at the proper time taken due meanß to understand them, they might have been carried out to a successful issue. The committee, while blaming the General Manager for his failure to carry out his instructions, arid so bringing about the stoppage of the railways on the 2nd and 3rd of April, is of opinion that if the Government, when the General Manage again asked for instructions on the 18ft.«, March, had taken more direct meannthan w appears they did, to ascertain if their instructions respecting re-engagements had been carried out (the time for doing so hating expired), the stoppage referred to might hate been avoided. ■. j ;•,.', " The committee having taken evidence from a number of employers of labour, and from the heads of departments at the railway, recommends that the extra labor employed in the different departments of the railway, should be reduced aa much off possible by giving a number of the extra hands, say twenty, permanent employment for from six to eight months during the busy Beason. of the year. " The following scale appears to the committtee to be fair and reasonable, anoV in Accordance with the current rates ruling for workof a similar character :— " " Storcmen and those who are responsible for the delivery and receipt of goods, present rates, aud not less than 7s a day. " Laborers in stores, 6s a day. " Extra labour (broken days) by thebour,

Is. . " Extra labour by the week, 40s a wqefey •] "Locomotive men, including engißCdrivers, present rates. " Carpenters, from 9s to 10s a day. " Blacksmiths, from 9s to 109 a day. " Skilled platelayers, 8s a day. . , ~ " Platelayers' labourers, 6s 8d a day. ■ "Labourers assisting mechanics, ' flanajr men, 7s a day. " Fencers, 7s a day. " Ordinary laborers, 6s a day. < " The committee thinks that a compiew and thorough inspection of the rolling- etocx should have been made long since, not oniy for the safety of the public, but also ttj» action could have been taken on Mr $« home's letter of the 4th September^ Wh the delay in ordering narrow ganger?JJJJ stock, may cause an unnecessary exP eß to the province when the change from Dreau to narrow gauge takes place. £°J, f reasons have been given why the *«" the Executive on this matter have pot ™? carried out, and there being no °™f™ railway department competent to "»-*f "™L an inspection, it could only.be one outside. The committee opinion that the rolling. stock kept up to meet fully tbe wortof tbeHj*« all tim_ of the year. From the evident » appears that another engine and steam eras-* are still wanted. ' . ... . t v c -The committee recommends that « workshops should be fitted up ™™Jl% machinery, plant, fee, so as to PWM£ all the necessary repairs to the and that they should be placed under responsible and competent man as foreman of locomotives and workshops . { snio u »In conclusion, the committee is or opw that the management of the satisfactory in many respect., f tinue to be so while there is «°* concord betwetn the Superintendent, w Executive, and the General Manager. "ARTHUR C Kgj^;. POLICE. com . Mr Parker m° vcd .i tha *,„ a ;^l C the want mittee be appointed to mq B J" "g-'&Jjeo of harmony which is

«ithpo werto call for persons and papers, o f Mr Kennaway, Col. Brett,-Hon. jofoiTHall, Messrs Ormsby, Potts, Tbsswill, and the mover. ■ Hon. CoL Brett said that on a point of delicacy he wished to have his name withdrawn, and he moved an amendment to that jhe amendment was carried. Mr Richardson said he thought that there were circumstances which made it desirable that the committee should be elected by ballot. ' The suggestion waa agreed to, and a ballot * taken, which resulted in the appointment of the same hon. members as were named in the motion, viz., Messrs Kennatfay,. Potts, Hall, Ormsby, Tosswill, and the The motion as amended was agreed to. ■ GERMAN CHURCH. Mr Joynt moved that his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the estimates a sum not exceeding £930 as a grant to the German residents in the province, to enable them to erect a church •jj fix c ity of Christchurch wherein Divine worship may be conducted in the German language. y^ e gum to be paid to the persons who are or may be appointed jri-tees of the said church. The hon. member appealed to the House to »gi.e' to the vote, pointing out that the German residents were a credit to the pro--rince. He also pointed out that the various dfenonrinations in Canterbury had formerly jeceived grants of money, and he hoped the House would, in common justice, give a vote to enable the German residents, who were unable unaided, to build a church. Mr Knight seconded the motion. The Provincial Secretary supported the motion. He said that one inducement for thoroughly good men to come here, was to show them that provision was being made for their spiritual welfare. He did not support the motion in a sectarian spirit. Mr INGLIS opposed the motion on the - ground that- the Council should not be called upon to give any grants for denominational p_tp6Bes. Let gentlemen who wished to see the German, or any other church, established in the province, put their hands in their i pockets to help them. . ~ , Mr Peacock said if the vote had been asked for any other denomination he would j oppose it, but the present was an exceptional case, and'ne would support it. Mr Richardson also supported the motion. Hon J. Hall reminded the House that the Council had previously granted sites and given votes of money to religious denomina--tions. He thought that the House could hardly adopt any course more suitable than to enable the German residents to erect a place of worship, so that their fellow countrymen when they arrived here could worship in their own language. The Provincial Treasurer supported the motion, and stated that the House could not consistently refuse to agree to the vote. The House then went into committee. " MrlNGLis again strongly protested against the vote. If the House agreed to grant the money to one of the German denominations, it would be called upon to grant a vote to others as well. Hon. Colonel Brett also spoke against the motion. He pointed out that if the precedent which had fallen into desuetude were again revived, the House would be called npon to vote sums of money all round to religions and so-called religious bodies. Hon. Mr Buckley spoke against the motion. Mr HEALEY also opposed the motion. .The resolution was then put and declared to he carried on the voices. Col. Bbbtt called for a division, which resulted as follows :— For the motion ...... 22 Against 14 r:r..'::'" Majority for the motion 8 The motion was reported to the House and adopted. LAND ON DEFERRED PAYMENT. _.Brown said he begged to move the resolution standing in his name as follows : —That a system of deferred payments with proper restrictions in the sale of the waste lands of the province will accelerate the settlement thereon and increased culti- \ TOtioh of the same. The hon. member said he begged to thank the Council for the indulgence it had extended ! r to him for the past few weeks in postponing \ t&e J consideration of the resolution. He knew that hon. members had been anxious to have the matter considered, and many I had been detained in town for that purpose. I He regretted this, but he must say that the i state of his health had been such as prevented "his attendance sooner ; and, in fact, { even now if he were to consult his own | feelings, he should not at present be ad--1 dressing the House. [Hear, hear.] The I question was a very important one, and he J knew he should not now be able to do justice.to it. He had promised several hon. members in the General Assembly, Messrs Halt, Studholme, and Parker, that he would bring the matter before the Provincial Council, first having taken the sense of the General Assembly on the question. Hon. members would remember what the result of the division in the Assembly was, viz., 41 ia favor of his measure to 17 against, representing 20 ayes from the Middle Island, spd'2l from the North Island, which indicated despite the sensitiveness of the Middle Island members on the waste land question, the direction which reform in the settlement of the country was taking, and which it ttoSIcT eventually arrive at; Some hon. members were inclined to think that he would not press his motion on the attention of the Qooßctt. For instance the hon member for (fewJdioe {Mr Macdonald) was rather alarmed that he (Mr Brown) had given notic. of a motion on the subject, thus showing his eagerness for the fray. He (Mr Bro*jm) thought it was a very great pity and "very injudicious on the part of an hon member, as the representative of- ascertain class, to throw down the gauntlet to the people, as the large majority *ere directly entitled to the use of tbe land as nuchas the few who held over s,ooo,oooacres. He (Mr Thrown) said his hon. friend should h*.Ye_ consulted the interests of all parties by not tl-TOwing down the gauntlet in that manner. He (Mr Brown) had from time to time lot only incurred the ill-feeling, he might »y. of certain people, but he had also been tautened, and one person had told him *lien he came down from Wellington after lastfiession of the General Assembly, that he »«B .surprised that he (Mr Brown) was not met by a certain party in the Council and 3*i*en into the sea. [Laughter.] Another told hiffitfeat U it were possible he and others would -" crucify him. [Laughter, and cries of " Name, A Jmnfii"] He did'not think it was necessary A |° tip so, but he' would tell the hon. memj*r the name outside if he followed him out. [Laughter.] * The hon. member ought to Wl that threats were not likely to intimiWeihim jn the {matter, and that he was not likely, when he once put his hands to the - PfoftgKto turn back. He now asked hon. Members to consider the matter carefully «3<i give _rhat they believed was a fair and aonest decision on the matter, which he *Ueied they were quite capable of doing. He knew they were not unwilling to listen to argument and reason, and to decide the -?*tter in accordance with their own judgment. He had no reason to believe that case would be an exception to the -rale. He thought, in a question of this -PH it would be better that he should first fcfe* to the resolution as it stood, and <ftersrarda whether it was desirable to accelerate the settlement of the waste lands with <«c advantage of so doing, and in the next Pkee. what principles could be adopted with *c conditions and safeguards likely to ensure Recess ; and lastly he would revert to some tl * c ' c *J ecfcion ß 'which had been urged to Joe measure by some persons. In proposing resolution, although it seemed to be a Ter y broad one. and one which seemed to j* T er the question thoroughly, he should 'tee members tp understand that as he it down for discussion and conside--4 2®** he also wished the House to consider | taeßiK he had brought in to the General _t? SSal l y connection with it, and p ne- asked bon. members not only 8 their opinions with regard _"■& *9 that Bill, but also whaj advice they

thought proper to offer, and he should be quite prepared in another place to adopt those suggestions which hon. members thought should be adopted in the Bill. The ideas of that Bill were entirely his own, and he of course deferred to the opinions of hon. members of that Council as to the details of the measure. It wasimpossibleforhimto propose in the shape of a resolution the whole of what was called the Canterbury Waste Lands Bill of last session of the General Assembly, and he should therefore read in detail the Bill before he finished his remarks. He proposed to consider first whether the system of deferred payments in laud with proper restrictions would accelerate the settlement of the country. To hia mind, if there was one feeling more intense in the breast of a struggling, diligent, and rightly disposed man more than another, it was the natural and commendable desire to accumulate landed property and a home either in the country of his birth or in that of his adoption. It was that feeling which gave birth to patriotism in any land, and which led to all that was good and virtuous in governments and in individuals, and he believed it was most commendable and the duty of every country and legislative body not only to consult, but also to foster and preserve to the utmost extent that feeling. [Hear, hear.] He believed it was Addison who said that " A freehold though it be in ice or snow, will make the owner pleased with the possession, and shout in defence of it;" and he (Mr Brown) thought he might have added with a great deal of justice, that a freehold made a man shout not only in defence of it, but also of his country. If a man could only be once led to consider any country as his home, nothing would foster that feeling more then to allow him to have a vested interest and a homestead in the country. It waa that natural desire which prompted men to acquire land, and just in proportion to the facilities for satisfying their "hnnger" for land, would be the acquisition of land and permanent houses ; of course all things being equal and reasonable. In support of the proposition that settlement would be accelerated by deferred payments, the operation of the principle in the different colonies, and even in the provinces of New Zealand might be brought forward with profit in the debate. It was very singular that the difference in the land laws in the colonies and provinces had, in some instances, retarded, and in others assisted, settlement. All the laws and government these colonies alike professed, and in some degree practised facilities for the settlement of the land by one class or another, or perhaps all classes. Such was his object in-framing the measure which he submitted that evening to the consideration of the Council. In 1 ooking over not only the results, but also the conditions contained in all the land laws of the different colonies and provinces, it struck him as being most curious, the difference in the results in each case, and he thought it would strike every person who had through prejudice against, or ignorance of the working of the system, as a most singular fact, that not only every Government in the southern hemisphere had in one shape or another attempted the system of deferred payments, and so far as he could ascertain, they had never, as yet, been a single failure ; but in every instance, from time to time, the legislative bodies had in a very great measure altered their land laws not for the purpose of making them more stringent, but for the purpose of making them more liberal, and giving greater encouragement to the settlement of the country by bond fide settlers. In every instance in which they had found out the defects of their land laws, instead of making a retrograde movement they set their heads to work to find out how to remedy those defects and advance the system they started upon. That to his mind was a conclusive argument that it was possible, however much they might differ in detail, to devise a plan by which they could put men on the soil, thus increasing not only the producting power, but also increasing the wealth and prosperity of the country. He should first instance the case of the United States of America, each with different land laws as to price and conditions. At first there were thirteen original colonies, now termed the thirteen original States, with prices of land varying from 5d to 14s per acre, with no two States having the 6ame land regulations, and in no case had they a single approach to what was called the deferred payment system. Afterwards the Federal Government acquired the noTth-western and south-eastern country, and they devised regulations which allowed settlement before survey, and sometimes according to the operation of the survey system, ten years elapsed before the survey overtook the settlement. The consequence was that ten years were allowed in which to pay for their land. Siuce the year 1796, the Western territories under this system had in 1869, 61,000,000 acres of land under cultivation, while the thirteen original states under the old system had only 28,000,000. He found that the average yield per acre in the Western territory was 10 7/10ths bushels and in the oiiginal states 11 9/lOthsbushelß. [The hon. member then proceeded to read statistical returns regarding Queensland, New South Wales, South Australia, Victoria, Wellington, Auckland, Otago, and Nelson.] Periodically almost every one of those colonies and provinces amended their laws and regulations, not for the purpose of making the terms of settlement more stringent, but more easy. There was no faltering in their desires or aims in this all important reform, but a determination to make the face of the country smile with fertile fields and comfortable homes. So far as he had had an opportunity of observing, that it was impossible that this ball, once it commenced rolling and the people began to understand it was their inherent right to occupy the land, and that it was for the good of the whole country that the people should occupy the land with the view of cultivating it and developing the resources of the country, it was impossible, he repeated, after the ball was set in motion to stop it until the end had been gained. Every attempt to retard the occupation of the waste lands had been as futile and would continue to be so, as much so as Mother Partington's attempt to stop the Atlantic ocean with her mop. [Laughter.] The only question was, how to start the system fairly, and to do justice to all parties and to ensure it with certain safeguards. He had endeavored to do, and he invited the advice of hon members in order to make the measure successful in all its details. If the principle had such results in other places, to his mind it amounted to a conviction that it would work successfully in the Province of Canterbury. [Hear, hear from Mr Knight.] From a late return furnished by his Honor the Superintendent, it appeared that there were over 900,000 acres of really good agricultural land in the province, and 5,000,000 acres, at least, of lands leased. If they reduced those 900,000 acres by one-half, which was asserted to be nearer the mark, and by the proposed system double the present number of farmers in the province, they would be doing the greatest possible benefit to the whole country, augmenting their producing power, and lightening their burdens, which before many months were over, they must devise some means of doing. One of the advantages of this system was that a working man who saved for instance his £20 or £30 a year would be able to invest it in the purchase of land annually, when in the course of a few years he would be able to have 100 acres to go upon, which would be a comfortable home for himself and his family. Thousands of working men in this country, who had only the Savings' Bank to go to, and which he was sorry to say few took advantage of, would find that the investment of money in land was the very best investment, aud one that was safe from all financial convulsions. They would have something to look forward to in shape of a home, and it was their duty to offer . every inducement to working men, every inducement to remain in the country. The system would also be a great boon to persons with large families, because they could assist their children in making a stnrt in life, by giving them small freeholds to commence with. ~He believed that hundreds aiid hundreds of families would settle on the land rather than do, as they were now compelled to do, plunge on their laud under

what was known as the purchasing clause system, which had done mure for the ruin of Canterbury than any other system. They had now 282,000 acres of land under cultivation in the province of Canterbury, and from a return which he had, he found that not less than 175.093 acres were owned by one party, and leased by other parties. That showed the want of facilities under our present land regulations for bona fide settlement. A working man earning average wages must labor about seven years before he could purchase 100 acres, and then would have nothing left to buy stock and implements. He must labor on for at least two years more to purchase those farm necessaries. How many men, he should like to ask, would stand firm against temptation and toil all that time ? They would rather plunge on to the land under the ruinous purchasing clause system which had become almost a necessity under their present land laws, which had the effect of driving men to other provinces for the purpose of investing in laud. Iv fact, he met when he was last in Wellington no fewer than sixteen men who had left his own district and settled there, because the land laws of Canterbury were not liberal enough. Taking into account the arrivals and departures from Lyttelton, he should like to know how many of the immigrants whose passages they had paid to Canterbury remained in the country. They all were aware that the country was committed to the scheme called the Public Works and Immigration scheme ,and that certain railways under that Act Tere determined upon, and they knew they had to pay the interest on the cost of constructing those works, and in some way make piovisiou for their payment. No man who fairly considered the condition and production of the country, could help arriving at the conclusion that some means must be devised by which not only would their railways be made reproductive, but the burdons of the country be lightened. One way was to give people every facility for settling on the land in order that their presence might increase the freights of the railways and thereby not only pay the working expenses of the lines, but also the interest on the cost of their construction. He believed that there were several railways proposed to be constructed in the province alone, which would not pay even the working expenses unless they increased the production of the country, and thereby the freights upon the railways. He thought, therefore, that hon. members would admit that if they were to avoid extra taxation they must, in some way or another, get people settled in the country. If they waited to do that until the railways were constructed, the first step would be that the General Government would step in, sell the land, and devote the money to their own purposes. By selling the land on deferred payments they would have the first instalment paid down, and the other instalments would be assured to the province, no matter what might happon. He had made a calculation of what Canterbury would gain, and the result of that was that the province would gain five times as much per annum by selling their land on deferred payments than would be the case under present arrangements. There were some objections which were urged against the scheme. One person objected to it because all the thrifty Scotch and English laborers would settle and leave no servants but the Irish. [Laughter. [ Another objected because all his countrymen would rush off to engage in planting potatoes, and leave none but English and Scotch servants to do the work. [Renewed laughter.] Another said every servant girl would be snapped up and carried to the homes of these deferred payment farmers; but the most absurd and offensive objection he heard was that the country would be settled with paupers. That objection proceeded from men who occupied public positions by the suffrages of the people, but he really did not think that they meant what they said. Did they mean to tell the House and the country that every man was a pauper who could not walk into the Land Office and throw down £200 to purchase 100 acres of land ? or did they mean that a man who wished to pay £50 down, and asked time to pay the balance, was a pauper and unfit to purchase or hold land in the province, but respectable enough to make a home in other provinces or colonies ? They maintained they had a very great paternal care for the poor man in the country, but what did they do. They forced the poor man nnto the hands of the capitalist, taking borrowed money at I 2£ per cent., with a promise to pay £5 an acre at the end of five years, which few of them were able to carry ont. Why did they not stop that arrangement, and prevent men from plunging on their land on such terms ? The only way to defeat the purchasing clause system which had done so much harm to the country was for the Government, which should be the reflex of the people, to offer inducements to the people to settle on the land by the proposed system. As an instance of the extent to which the purchasing clause system was carried on, he might state that in the Ellesmere district no less than 20,995 acres were held under lease, in the Courtenay district 14,056 acres, and in the Geraldine district 16,856 acres. He would ask hon. members if it was not high time for some system to be devised for preventing the land to be leased in that manner and for settling people on the land on more favorable terms. That was what he wished bon. members to decide upon. With regard to the objection made to his proposal, viz., that 100 acres was too small a holding, he would answer that if a limit were not made, inducements would be held out to people in settled districts to rush off to unsettled districts, and take up land in large quantities. His only object was to enable people who had not the money to pay down, to pay for the land by instalments, in order that they might secure a home. Mr Macdonald called attention to the fact that the hour had arrived for adjourning to tea. Mr Beown said he had not nearly exhausted his subject, and he was sorry to say he would require at least another forty minutes to finish. [Several hon members : "You have spoken more than forty minutes : you have taken fifty-five minutes already."] He would therefore simply move the resolution and leave what he had still to say, until he replied to the remarks made by hon members in the course of the debate. Mr Knight seconded the motion, and said he would reserve any remarks he had to make till a future occasion, as the time for the usual adjournment had arrived. The House then adjourned till 7.50, when Mr Macdonald resumed the debate by saying that as the time for takiug up the Order of the Day had nearly arrived, he should move its adjournment. Mr Webb said he hoped the Government would agree to the postponement of the Order of the Day when the time arrived so as to allow of the debate being continued. The Provincial Secretary—l have no objection to that course. I beg to move the Order of the Day be taken up after the adjournment or close of the present debate. [Hear, hear.] The motion was carried to postpone the Order of the Day. and Mr Macdonald then withdrew his motion for the adjournment of the debate. Mr Macdonald, in resuming the debate, said he claimed to be heard upon the ques-. tion. ou the abound that the principal test to which he was subjected at his election was that he should oppose the principle of the motion now before the House. It was plainly understood when he was elected that he came to that House with a determination to oppose the matter of deferred payments. The hon. member for Rangiora had -mentioned that the great success of the United States as a colonising country was due to the fact that the deferred "payment for laud system obtained, there, but he (Mr Macdonald) thought the hon. member must be mistaken, as iv the States a man who wished to buy laud must pay down the amount of dollars aud cents required, aud no part of the amount was taken under any circumstances. He challenged the hon. member for Rangiora to d'Bprove this. The hon. member had also referred to Victoria as a case iv point in favor of the system. The Government iv Victoria, which they all knew, followed each

other with considerable velocity, trod in each other's footsteps; and the result was that that splendid colony was deeper in the mire than it ever was. He could say that anyone who went over the face of that magnificent country could not find the poor man. If they looked for him in the rich agricultural land he was not to be found there, but in the poor portions of the laud where he had to win his way by the sweat of his brow. The small lots were not to be seen, they were oflE the face of the land, and all the finest of the land was lost to the country because it was in large blocks. The system had also been tried in New South Wales, but there the land was locked up in large blocks, and in the jungle or the poor land there they found the free selector. A gentleman recently from Syduey had told him that there were places in which the free selectors were located, in which they were unable to get out their potatoes to market. They in Canterbury talked about bad roads, but they did not know what it meant. The roads in the parts he referred to would not bear a horse or a bullock. The most startling fact, however, was in connection with their own experience. The hon member for Rangiora had spoken in strong terms of the capitalists who had trepanned men on to the land on deferred payj ments. [Mr Brown—l beg my hon friend's pardon. I referred to the system and not to any person.] The hon. member for Rangiora had said that there was a large area of land held by persons who were under engagement to purchase the land, and he agreed with him that these were the most unfortunate men in Canterbury; but if they wished to increase the number of these, let them carry the hon. member's bill. [Cries of " No, no," and " Hear, hear."] If they saw an area of country a wilderness, overrun with thistles aud broken-down fences, they might know that this was the holding of men under deferred payments. [Hear, hear.] He had taken the trouble in the Road Board districts with which he was connected to ascertain something respecting the holdings of these sections under the deferred payments system, and he had ascertained that in scarcely one case had the purchase money been paid up ; indeed, not to probe the matter too far, he felt sure that there was a large amount of arrears of rent due. Men were induced to take up these holdings under the inducement of deferred payments, and starting in the ra?,e with a heavy burdeu upon them, they had no chance at all, and the inevitable result was misery. This was the -inevitable result of the system. The most vicious part of the whole of the hon. member's Bill was, that it encouraged class legislation, and punished those very men who had brought Canterbury forward to her present position. He asserted that it was all but repudiation, and an injustice on every freeholder iv Canterbury. [Hear, hear.] That their land laws required amendment, he was not prepared to deny, but he looked upon it that the way proposed by this Bill was mischievous ; besides which the time chosen to bring forward the Bill was most inopportune. The sales of land had increased, aud this because of the works being pushed forward by the Government. They v» ere now pushing forward a railway into one of the largest and finest agricultural districts in the province, where a large area of unpurchased laud existed, and yet they were called upon to affirm that the province had retrograded by passing a measure of this description. The hon. member for Rangiora had quoted the prices of land in the adjoining provinces and colonies, but he (Mr Macdonald) asserted that an acre of land in Canterbury was far better worth £2 than an acre in another province was worth £1. In no part of Australia or the other parts of this colony was there such an area of land free from natural obstructions to agricultural operations as in Canterbury, where nothing had to be done but to put the plough into it. Again, he repeated that the time chosen by the hon. member for Rangiora was most inopportune. [Cheers.]

Mr TOSSWILL said the hon. member for Rangiora had referred to the trial of the system of deferred payments iv New South Wales, but he (Mr Tosswlll) was informed by gentlemen who had lived in that colony that there were hundreds of thousands of pounds due on the deferred payments system which would never be paid. [Hear, hear.] Hon. members who had read the Victorian papers would know that most disgraceful scenes had taken place under the deferred payments system, personation and otherwise, and the result had been that an immense area of the country had passed out of the hands of the bona fide settlers of the country. The hon. member seemed to think that once put a man on the land and his troubles were all over, but he could assure him that it was quite the reverse, as his troubles would only just be begun. He (Mr Tosswill) challenged the hon. member for Rangiora to show any part of the colonies in the Southern hemisphere, where the land regulations had worked with such success and equal justice to all classes as in Canterbury. He contended that whereever the system was introduced the effects were visible on the face of the country in the shape of almost universal pauperism, as men were induced to take up blocks of land with quite inadequate capital, or noue at all. He was quite prepared to advocate a system which would aid in the settlement of the country, but he challenged the hon member for Rangiora to prove that this would be the case. It would, if this system were carried out, tend to revolutionise the labor market; numbers of men who were now employed would leave their work and rush into these farms, and would not do themselves any good, but on the contrary would involve both themselves and the country in pauperism. He should oppose the motion.

Mr Buckley said he did not at all see the argument of the hon. member for Rangiora that because the second reading of a Bill for deferred payments bad passed the General Assembly by a large majority, the Council should accept it, and this because the members of the Provincial Council knew far batter what was best for the province than the members of the General Assembly, several of whom represented provinces who would only be too glad to do anything that might tend to the detriment of the province and to bring her on a level with their own, and he thought that a number of those voting for the second reading had done so with this idea in view. For many years past farming in the province had not paid ; those who had done any good were the men who went out to work, leaving their wives and children on their own farms. With respect to the system of deferred payments in Victoria, he asserted from his experience, that it had been a total failure, and year after year hundreds of thousands of pounds were written off as lost to the colony. In Queenslaud the system only obtained over a portion of that colony, while in South Australia as had been truly remarked, it was necessary to offer inducements for persons to settle there; but the statistics of South Australia proved the system to be a failure. With regard to the New Zealand land, he said that the land offered was of such a character as to be almost worthless, and indeed it was almost necessary for them to give the land for nothing, to induce the people to settle, as it was not at all comparable to the inferior portion of the land in Canterbury. If the hon. member had proposed special blocks along the railway for the purpose of settling families, he might have been prepared to support some such scheme as an experiment, on the condition that they should remain on the land for a certain time, and then purchase at a certain price. He should oppose the resolution.

Mr Sawtell would support the motion of the hou. member for Rangiora. He believed that, with proper restrictions, the system of deferred payments would accelerate settlement, and also the production of grain. It would be the means of getting amougst them men with small capital sufficient to start farming in the province, with the assistance afforded by the deferred payment system advocated "by the hou. member for Rangiora. There "was no doubt that the present system of deferred payments in Canterbury, which had been referred to, was" a one-sided arrangement altogether, and had been found not to work at all well. Men had gone on the laud under large capitalists, and after working for some years had had to give up

all they had done, owing to the clauses in their lease being too stringent; then-fore he said the system was b;vi >ndro'' ; "t the core. It was probable il.nt if t:. - - .-ystem propounded by the m.miier i\>v Kangiora were carried out it. would disfigure some of the large sheep stations : but they had no right to consider that, as it was their duty to populate and settle the country, and he contended that by this system they would introduce a good class of farmers amongst them. He should support the motion.

Mr Knight said he must congratulate the mover of the motion on the opposition his motion had evoked, as 1:0 argument of any weight at all had been brought against it. They had been told that some of the best men of the province were leaving it and going to other provinces, notably Wellington. [Oh, oh, and laughter.] But what was the reason; why, because the small capitalist had no opportunity of purchasing a portion of land. Hon. members had said that in many cases the holders of land under the present deferred system of payment had not paid up the purchase money. He did not deny this, but he said that they had paid up their rent during the whole time they had been in possession, while if they had been under the system advocated hy the hon. member for Rangiora, they would have the fee-simple of the land. It was true that they were pauperising the country, but why was it ? Why, because they started, a* hon. members had said, with a heavy load on their backs—a load which the hou. member for Rangiora wished to remove. Then again, hon. members had caused the cry of class j legislation ; but, he took it, it was late iv j the day to talk about class legislation, a.s J they had been doing so for years ; they had been covering the country with pre-emptive rights. It had been said that iv other colonies the deferred system was a failure, but they fouud the singular fact that the countries had not gone back to the old system. Hou. members had also spoken of this beiug an inopportune time to introduce this system because the land sales were increased. So they were ; but did they know who the land was sold to .' [An hon. member, " Yes."] Well, the hon. member might know, but he would tell the other hou. members. Since September, 17,000 acres of laud had been bought by the squatters—[hear, hear] — which he did not look upon as at all an indication of a prosperous increase iv the settlement of the country. With regard to the holdings in Canterbury, he thought it would be fouud that there were iv use about eighty acres or thereabouts, but who had bought there at first ? Why, the runholders themselves, to prevent their runs being spotted. He should support the motion of the hon. member for Rangiora.

Mr Dixon said he thought they should pause before bringing forward any such system as that proposed by the hon. member for Rangiora; and he should oppose the motion of the hon. member for Rangiora, because he did not see that the adoption of the system would be of any use to the country. Mr Rhodes said that he should oppose the resolution. He had taken the trouble to ascertain the sentiments of a large number of the people, particularly in the district of the hon. member for Rangiora, and they were opposed to it altogether. He could not support the motion of the hon. member member for Rangiora, and he hoped he would reconsider the motion. Mr BESWICK said his interests aud his sympathies were with the small proprietors, and if he believed the proposition of the hon. member would achieve the result he desired, he would go with him, but his conversation with gentlemen from the other colonies had led him to a belief that a system of deferred payments would not realise what they all desired to see. The various speakers had referred to the system of deferred payments which had obtained to some extent here, but he could not quite agree with all they had advanced, as he had known men who knew what they were about, pay their £7 and £8 per acre for their land, while others who went on to freehold land, could not make anything out of it, and this simply because the former knew what they were about, while the others did not. The effect of the deferred payment system would be to bring out shipload after shipload of immigrants and settle them on the land, thus shutting out the older colonist who, with their children growing up around them, would find that there was no land for them. He said that they should be most cautious as to interfering with their land laws, as they had been the very most successful in the whole of the colonies, and this because they gave any man who had saved £40 the opportunity of acquiring twenty acres of land, into which he might put a plough the next day. He thought the hon. member was quite right in ventilating the question, and asking them to express their opinions before going to the General Assembly, but he should oppose the motion in tho interests of his constituents, and those of the province at large. Mr Enys said that he should oppose the resolution. He believed he was expressing the opinion of the district, which he had the honor to represent, when he said that they were perfectly satisfied with the working of the present regulations. Mr Fisher said he should support the motion, because it seemed to him that it would lead to the introduction of a class of small farmers, which it was highly desirable to encourage. Under the system of deferred payments, the small farmer would be enabled to make a start, with a fair chance of doing for himself and the country at large. Mr Webb said that the hon. member for Rangiora had forwarded him a copy of the Bill from Wellington, and he must say he agreed with the project. With respect to the obtaining of the system of deferred payments in New South Wales, he said that it had been a success. He believed in holding out inducements to respectable persons of moderate capital to come out and settle amongst them. He should support the motion. Mr Hawkes said he should vote against the motion, aud by so doing he considered he was doing what was by far the best for the new comer, the working men, instead of enticing them to become the owners of small holdings which would not prove profitable to them. They were going into immigration, but if this system were carried out they would have the immigrants they introduced, instead of supplying the labor market, for which they had been brought in, rushing off to take up these small holdings without any adequate capital, or even experience, to prevent them from ending in almost certain ruin. It was all very well for hon. members to talk about covering the face of the country with population, but to introduce a large number of people, and leave them on the land without any provision or an adequate amount of capital, was simply an act of injustice. He should oppose the motion. Mr Peacock thought that a man coming to the colony would find himself in a far better position if he took a situation at £40 or £50 per year than if he took up the holdings under the proposal of the hon. member. He was in favor of the system being tried on a small scale, aud therefore he should move as an amendment that the following words be added to the resolution—" That with a view to which, the Council recommends that two blocks of 10,000 acres each be set apart." I Mr Webb seconded the motion. Mr Wy.vn* Williams said that if he agreed with the hon member for Rangiora in every degree, he would advise him to withdraw the resolution, because he wa-> running the risk of losing a resolution in a Council which did not represent the people. If the lion member wished to bring the matter forward, he should do so at an election, when members could be returned either for or against the measure. He would shortly, with the permission of the House, '-cad an extract from an authority of some weight, which would show that the system in New South Wales had been a complete failure. He contended that the scope of this measure would result in the very worst results to those very parties which the hon. member had said he was so very solicitous to promote. As au instance of public feeling on the question, he might say that the latest returned member in the

House, the member for Geraldine (Mr Macdonald) and himself, when before the constituency of Papanui, were both returned on the other side. Well, in the other House the hou. member for Rangiora had said that | there were ninety-nine per cent, of the people in Canterbury in favor of the measure introduced by him. But he (Mr Williams) said that what he had stated relative to the two occasions upon which the public had had an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon j this question, they had most conclusively I pronounced against it. The working men of Canterbury were too much alive to tli.-ir own interests to accept the shadowy and delusive promises of becoming a landowner which was held out under this system. For what possible good could it be to an unfortunate man just landed from England' to tell him, " Oh. you are a land owner here," when, perhaps, he would, after a few months or so, find himself in a very uufortuuate position. [Mr Williams theu quoted at some leugth from a prize essay on the Land Laws of New South Wales, to prove that the system had been a failure.] The hon. member for Rangiora in his opening speech had stated that the system would make the people happy and virtuous. [Mr Brown: "The hon. member is going out of the way to misrepresent mc. I never said that it would make the people virtuous It would take more than land to make the hon. member virtuous."] Well, he knew the hon. member had spoken of virtue, and he (Mr Williams) thought it referred to the people. Under the proposed Bill of the hon member, the occupiers of the land under the system would not be able to exercise their frauchise until the whole of their purchase money had been paid up. Now he (Mr Williams) strongly objected to this being done under any circumstances. The result of that system" would be that the couutry would be flooded with people who knew nothing about farming, and who would soon come to inevitable misery, and not only they would suffer but the country also. From tho extracts he had read it would be seen that a very large amount of money was lost to the colony of New South Wales, aud so far from the rents being as the hon. member had said five times in excess of those nosy received by this province, should his system be carried out, they would fall very far short indeed of the present amount received. If this scheme were carried out the condition of the province would be miserable indeed. The men who had been brought out under these delusive promises would be in a fewyears in such a condition that the Government would have no alternative but to turn them out into the highways and byways to beg or anything else, or else remit their purchase money. In less than three years from the introduction of this measure he confidently asserted that the laboring class in this province would be in a worse condition than the very lowest ranks of laborers at home, aud would be found going round the country, almost going down upon their knees to beg for a day's labor at any price, and he for one would never vote for a measure which he felt certain would effect the very ruin of the class they all wished to see advance in the social scale. He said that a movement of this kind, involving as it did a radical change in one of the most vital points of their constitution should go before the people before being carried into effect. He should oppose the motion of the hon. member for Rangiora. Mr DixON expressed his intention of voting against the amendment and the resolution. Mr Maskell said he should oppose the motion of the hon. member for Rangiora. He thought the system of deferred payments was not calculated to advance the interests of the province ; but he was inclined to accept the amendment as a trial —as an experiment of the system. If the experiment succeeded, so much the better for the province ; if it failed, it would not be a very large or important failure. Iv so doing, he did not intend to depart from his original opinion, that the system of deferred payments was wrong, but he would allow of this small experiment being tried as such.

Mr Macdonald would oppose the amendment on the same grounds as he had done the motion, because he did not believe that any constituency in Canterbury would be benefited thereby. He wished to say that he denied that the majority of the sales made were to runholders. He could tell the House that in South Canterbury there were the largest sales now being made which had been for years, aud the best feeling existed between the freeholders aud the runholders. There was not a particle of that feeling existing, as had been asserted by a portion of the Canterbury press for an object, and also several members of that House. They (the runholders) knew that they held their runs only until the freeholders came in ; they realised their position fully. He had been returned to oppose this part payment principle because his constituents qould not sec anything which would benefit them in the sightest degree. Mr Tosswill said he was very sorry to see that the hon. member for Rangiora was not in his place, as he wished personally to refer to a .statement made by him. He (Mr Tosswill) had said that in the neighboring colony of Victoria the outstanding amounts of purchase money which had never been got in, aud which never would be, were very large, but the hon. member had denied the statement. Well since then the hon. member for Papanui had risen in his place, and read an extract from an authority which showed that the sum of £800,000 was outstanding. After this he thought the House could hardly put confidence in the statements of the. Hon. member for Rangiora, and should require proofs laid before them.

Mr Beswick supported the amendment, and suggested that instead of two blocks of 10,000 acres each, they should make it four blocks of 5000 each, so as to form centres of population. [Hear, hear.] He thought this would carry out the views of the hon member for Waimate. In asking the House to carry the amendment, he did so because if they rejected the whole resolution they would strengthen the hands of the hon member for Rangiora. Mr Inglis said that he thought that by adding the words on to the resolution of the hon member for Rangiora, the House adopted the principle of deferred payments, not as an experiment but as a principle. If all the words of the resolution of the hoti member for Rangiora were struck out, then the Council could insert the words of the amendment which would only bind them to the experiment. Mr Higgins supported the original motion. He should have preferred however to have seen the words tacked on by way of amendment brought forward as a separate motion, so that the experiment might be tried on a small scale. While supporting the original motiou he wished to guard against pledging himself to vote for the bill of the hon. member. Mr F. H. Walker said he should support the amendment as a trial, because he saw great difficulties in the way of carrying out a deferred payments system in the province, and one of these was that the man who held land ou deferred payment would be enabled to sell his corn at a much lower price than his neighbor who had paid for his land, and thus unsettle the markets of the province. He would move as an amendment—" That while declining to express au opinion that the system of deferred payments for the sale of waste land in this province will accelerate the settlement thereof and the cultivation of the same, this Council is of opinion that a trial of the •system should be made in the province. That his Honor the Superintendent be requested to reserve for the purpose of such trial two blocks of 10,000 acres each." | Mr Peacock withdrew Ids amendment in favor of Mr Walker's amendment. Sir Brown* said that he was willing to accept the amendment of Mr Walker, and withdraw his original motion. Mr Walker's amendment thus became the substantive motion. Mr Hawkes asked the Provincial Secretary whether there were any blocks oi sufficient size for the purposes of the trial proposed. The Provincial Secretary said that he could not speak officially ou the subject, but lie might say as an old colonist that it \yould be extremely difficult to find two blocks of such a size of 10,000 acres. He

would suggest that the blocks Bhould be made smaller, say 4000 or 5000 acres. .Mr Fisher pointed out that it was not necessary to reserve these blocks; they mi_'ht receive applications up to 10,000 acres. Mr Wtxn Williams pointed out that the Council could hardly entertain this amendment, as it was opposed to the spirit of the Laiul Regulations, which expressly stated that the Superintendent could only sell the land at £2 per acre. What should be dona v.\is to obtain legislative powers to enable tho Superintendent to sell the land on deferred payments. Mr Jollie rose to move a second amendment. The SrEAKER said that the hon. member could not move an amendment. The question before the Council was, that all tho words after " that" be struck out. The words of Mr Brown's original resolution were then struck out. Mr Brown* theu moved, as an amendment on Mr Walker's motion—" That the following words be iuserted after the word province 'that this Council is of opinion that a trial of this system may beneficially bo attempted in this pro.iucc'to tho extent of 20,000 acres.'" Mr Maskell seconded the motion. Mr Jollie moved, as a further amendment—" That the Council, while not approving of the system of deferred payments, is still willing to try the experiment by setting apart two blocks of nOOO acres each." He said that it was only right that tho matter should be settled at once, as it was cropping up every session. He thought they would be enabled to get two blocks on the Great Southern Line, where the experiment could be fairly tried. Mr Buckley seconded the amendment. After some discussion, Mr Jollies ameudment was put and declared to be negatived on the voices, when Mr Jollie demanded a division, which took place with the following result : —Ayen, 16; Noes, 10. The motion was therefore negatived. The following is the division list:— Ayes, 15—Messrs Buchanan, Buckley (teller), Dixon, Enys, Hawkes, luglis, Jollie (teller), Macdonald, Mai lock, Matson, Parker, Perry, Studholme, Toss will, Wynn Williams. Noes—lt): Messrs Ueswick, Brett, Brown (teller), Cowlishaw, Duncan, Fisher, Healey, Higgins, Kcnnaway, Knight, Maskell (teller), Ormsby, Peacock. Rhodes, Richardson, Sawtell, Walker, Webb, Westenra. Mr Brown's amendment on Mr Walker's motion was then put aud agreed to on tha voices. The resolution as amended was then put and agreed to on the voices. Mr Walker theu asked leave to withdraw the following :—"That his Honor tho ■Superintendent be requested to reserve two blocks of 10,000 acres for the purpose of such trial." Leave was refused. Mr Beswick moved the previous question. The Speaker ruled tho motion out of order, as an amendment hnd been moved. The latter clause was theu put and negatived. privilege. Mr Brown wished to crave the indulgence of the House for a few minutes in reply to some remarks which he understood had been made respecting himself by the hou. member for Riccarton (Mr Tosswill) to the effect, that he (Mr Brown) had made an assertion which was not according to fact, and which had been contradicted by an extract read by the hou. member for Papanui (Mr Williams.) The hon. member for Riccarton had said that he (Mr Brown) had contradicted a statement that there werelarge arrears of rent due in the colony of Victoria under the system of deferred payments, but he had misunderstood him. What he (Mr Brown) meant to say was that thera had been' no defalcations. orders of the day. On the Orders of the Day being called on, Mr Kennaway moved their postponement until tho next day, which was agreed to. Tho other business on the paper was also postponed, and the House adjourned at 11.30 p.m. to 5 p.m. this day.

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PROVINCIAL COUNCIL., Press, Volume XIX, Issue 2833, 31 May 1872

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PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Press, Volume XIX, Issue 2833, 31 May 1872

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