LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.

Press, Volume XII, Issue 1484, 12 August 1867, Page 2

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.

r I h.a B.U w n9 brought Iwforo the House of Fvopresontutivos on (ho 6th instant f Or i t second reading, and aftor v very ] ong debate" part of which wo publish to day from' the Wellington papers, a division was taken and it was found that there was a clear majority against the Bill. On the motion being pu t that the word "now," proposed to bo omitted, stand part of tho question, the Hon» 3 divided, with tho following result : Ayes, 27 : Messrs Adams, Armstrong, * a Atkinson, H. A. Atkinson, Ludlam, Bra l!' Bunny, Carleton, Cox, Curtia, Hankmson Haughton (teller), Haiutain, J o ff McLean, McNeil, Murison, Ormond P o !' A. J. Richmond, J. C. Richmond SUHW (teller), Stevens, Wells, and Wilson d Noes. 36 : Messrs Baigont, Ball, 801 l n,, lase (teller), Brandon (teller) Bum, OsZ" bell, CargiH, Clark, Digman, Eyes, (JflJ? , R. Graham, Harrison, Heaphy, Hepbnm Hull, Macandrew, Macfarlan, Main \r ' houee, 0. O'Neill, J. O'Neill, O'Rorke' PaZ* Pafereon, Reeves, Reid, Reynolds, Studhml Pairs, Dr. Featherston and Mr Rfahwbert. The amendment that tho Bill be read th£ day cix months was then put and carried The Colokiai SaoBBiABY formally w Qrt >3 [ the second reading, and said that h e would reserve any remarks he had to make. Mr Haughton said he would : ntako a f aw remarks upon the Bill, although it waa ci 4» beginning of what would probably b a a W debate. He hoped that those gentlemen vhl opposed everything the Government proposed would not cay that the meaeuro -mc calouked to destroy those institutions upon whioh all our proaperity waa said to be founded, aatkf Bill was of such a character that it might have been drawn up by a committee of Superintendents. No doubt the numerous offices keptun by tha Provincial Governments would oau M » strong opposition ; but he hoped those offices would soon be swept away by the besozn of destruction. He did not go in for half mess. ures himself; and this Bill did not tuij '&•«* He should have liked a mnoh shorter Sill bus one whose meaning would be unmiubblo • and if he supported this Bill ifc would be for the good it contained. It seemed, nlmost a provincial Bill ; the word Superintendent constantly TJccarred in it • and no "powwtat* • ever was reserved to the Governor. [jLough« ter.] Whether rightly or wrongly, peop'e h»d got it into their heads that the outlying districts had not received proper retention from i :the Provincial Govensmenta. The allegations contained in a potition from Oamaru,' signed by 582 persons, and presented three or four years ago, stated that although a very largo sum had been received from that district by the Provincial Government, yet not ono foot of macadamised road had been constructed there. Another petition came up from tho bame place last session. Other petitions from different places complaining of tha neglect of the Provincial Governments, and asking for the establishment of ohiro councils, had been presented, this session. ■ Hon. members chose to laugh at thsse petitions, but that was not exactly the? way, in jwhich petitions signed by large numbers of people should bo received by that House, After this, it would be admitted that some measure of local self-government wes oeces* sary, and would meet with the approval of the people. Then came the question, what sort of a measure should they have ? It had 'been; eaid, how; could this Bill t?o?k ? Hβ 'would reply that it was a copy of a Victorian ißill, rand! had wppked well, io, Victoria, Municipal Governments of the same kind as those proposed were,. established in oths? jcolonies, and had never been done anay with iafter being once ■ established. an [argument worth considering. It would bo almost impossible to frame a meaaurs of so 'comprehensive a' character which : wontd' !entirely euifc every district, in tho colony. 'But, there was one safeguard, if as had beon said the Bill, would have .a mitohiiivona effect by opposing the will of ,th» people,twiio 'were said to be enamoured of provincial ifl;stitutions —the > Bill: jwas entirely nennieewe. Although the Bill was certainly very-long, the pith of it was contained in a fan clauses. |Probabfy those whick' dealt with theicial arrangements would ; meet with tbo 'strongest opposition. Mr Haughton then : described the matters with wbioh the Boards would havo to deal. These Boards would, in reality, cave Provincial Councils much time and trouble ; and he Eiaintftined, in spita of its having been, denied^.that there we;.v s-gesd Ideal of log-rolling, ~ab«it r «>ada. rin Promcial ;Councile. , Jf ,the JBoar4e neglected &Msr duties they l %onld,'uader^%ho i proVisions of this BiU, be liable to havo tbejr funds stopped. One difficulty which had arisen ia .tlieiamds of hon. members was, as to what positica difltricWin whioH iU the* land: had , "been 5 -sold \ would be placed with to tha ouclow;ment. Perhaps sonre* such plsn as this might be adopted; The Provincial Grovem'ment might pay ; for a'ceriain'time a l Me&'f&& centage upon . the gross amount o! land revenue -which had been'•' derived, &oas the district, deductings of courae, any amount that had been expended in the coestructiou :of public works in theT'custridt. TEci Efga* |ment"ihaC by tlie "Bill"" the" rteh~pre?iEesr [would have to support the poor was easily ■ disposed of, as the money derived fiora- each i province" ivould be spent in such province. It had been asked whether the rich proTinses ; would have to pay the equivalent for thois provinces which were unable to ,do so. But that wae a matter which might very preprlj be left alone for the present. [Oh, oh.j It must also be remembered that the Bill pould not come into operation for eighteen iaoathaor two years. Although the BUI waa long, j«t the legislation would, in consequence, be.more complete. -He could not see how the Bill would affect the financial affairs of tho ptcrvineo si" all. 'If the provinces did their duty to tho; outlying ; districts ■ they would spend : mere money upon them than would be graated to the Boards by the Billr The objection taisa as to , the effect the Bill would have tspon thegoldfielde was met by the action of thefioosa the father-day in rejecting the Gold Duty Act. There were many parte of the Bill whfefr would be of very great service to the oat-, districtSj as, for instance, the facilitica whie.b were, given for obtaining loans. Ha hopes that, in considering ibis measure, its elect upon the: people would obtain goEse s-egsrf, and that its effect upon the GoveroraesS woufel not be so much looked to. The Houso must also regard the future of the colony, asd i-o$ what effect the Bui would have upon it. E«a if the people had to pay heavier toxea tfeemst present they would pay them ■.chflsrfblly» knowing the money would be espeadea fo? tfiefr ownTbenefif, and they would not fsel as now, that the taxes they had to pay wereepsal in the maintenance -of—officials and Gofersmeats: Nothing,- however, that they osdi f® in that House would eatiefy tJba ultra-praTi:-.-Kisl party; we must swallow tbam, c? they wsaiu ewollowne. , [Seer, heae.] • Mr J. b'Hszis would tell the hon. member that,' be had t qev» held mj ofSw under a Provincial Government; he less intijfnded to oppose -the eecond readisfoi this Bill, and he would do bo becsuws. 4l» Governiaent-had-aot given him time Io lay thatßili beforu hi» sad eosestt them upon it. Although this was tho tecog • 'nTwd'Kme~i6~dlicusilhTprmcrpl'o of the yet:from the sudden "manner in whiakithaa besii laii'befoTO the Houta end the peblic ac was unable to diecuse is in the ihsesiw t» could have» wished, and he truetefd-shatthe Government would give the public snapper*, tunity of expresaing their opinion on iw pro* visions. If iioh. member* would the great ebangee proposed by the Bill—tlxat it would destroy the ProvhicW Qci>?emmmt® t by depriving them of feh® mt«S3 cf »»p]»K J immigration must ceto© for tb#fetß»# as the local Boards would not haw ftmdi t[> pay for immigratioa j tb«y would agree mta him that the people should have Urn* So coe» eider the BUI. Although he intended to vm against its second reading, yet'if the.Govern* ntent would gfre'••him--feme to■ retef& to m oobstitueat»-and : efflita!ivth«ia : upoil i% »® would, if'lhey-aftesf fauo'ieewiaejfsitioa tkeaga--their inteieete would be benefited 6y the jseas-

are, hi§ own aod rote for the Bill. There wert open to the QorenxTßvati either to postpone the measure till the <tfrat "week- °* nesrt eeeaton,:or dissolve the House. : -Mr Bbasdox expected that the hon. member would have followed np hie remarks by moving as an amendment that the BUI be read a second time that day six. months ; and in order to carry out the hon. member's views, he should mere that amendment himself, and he did so without any reluctance, as he understood that thie wae not to be a ministerial question. It would not be possible to frame a Bill which would more entirely denude Provincial Governments of all power, and he would much rather that the Government had plainly put the question before the House as to whether provincial institutions should exist or cease to exist then to make an insidious attack, upon them in this manner. The districts were.to be formed directly by the Governor at the request of a few of their inhabitants. It was a very great mistake to try and adapt the lawe of a country wbicn were made at a time when it had no institution* to a country where certain iMbtutione Syexisfea-SheGovernor, by theßill.might SiUtricte and counties, and the counts were not small ones—and he might here »w lrouiai> e muohfflorenam e «u»th^naeofficeni of the existing Provinc.al <J>^^ e °* A very considerable aepunt-of.poWW given to levying toll* establishing markets, hospitals, &o7 ; Ld thus as soon a- * district was conetituW it was at once virtually removed from, all control of the Provincial Government in : which it was eituated.and became directly a; Irt of the colony. If there was anything: Scessarrto tbe easyworking of the District! Boards, the power was vested not., in the; gripennteadent but in tne Governor, who; had to make regulations, and who, even if a ; dispute arose, was appointed to be the sole judge, He particularly drew attenhpn to the clause providing that t&e Governor should! hsve power to make regulations-and to the judge of all disputes ; and if there were no itoer dbjeotiohablexlauses in the whole Bill, this alone would be fatal to it. When it was borne in mind that the Legislatures of the provinces were precluded from passing any lawirepugnant to the Acts of that Assembly, end that all their Ordinances were subject to fee disallowed, it became self-evident that as Boon M » district was constituted it was from the contrbr oflne Pnm6cialiLegJalatatei And yet, under these circumstances, the district had still a right to lend representatives .to the Provincial Legislatures. Again; to show hoW ill-advised it was to jttenjTst to -fit infltitaiione of country to this, «Wr#*«*9 certain power* - gived by the Bjß,~a«i il was said that"' iit' ?wa* not com-; ©stent for Provincial Legielat?ures' to givetke& poweTti but would it not have been better, if it wenre neoeesary that fresh^powers; ehoity be r #iTan to enable the public business! to be to give..th£m ; to -, the Provincial Councils,'wd hot to roaji districts ? This BlßPtfai noti-thiflneasure that was required at t&* -present" iimej and .he wondered /at , the Government attempting to palm off npon the AiwfflWy euch a meaeure. Thto as to the endowmente.' Situated''as ■ seTeral of the wtmiieee ire, it wee within 'the ringe of possibility thafrlsome'of the districts might tax tifiSneelvee so much rs to absorb the whole ordinary-• revenue , ;:of '.the province-in.<which eituated,: ;and then how was, the tmeineas of the province to be; carried on, and the loans which,. it had raised to be repaid? (Jbis waa a yerj great, infringement of the Con"etitution, bebttuse tifie General Government were entitled to appropriate only somuoh of the TfeVeoue as was necessary to carry, .on the pubiii). .earsice of the . colony, or to.pay. for public works carried on. for the benefit of the whole colony; the surplus, belonged to the provisoes, but the Bill deprived the provinceeof aceittSnportidnof the surplus revenue, and gave ItwooldbeimposeiWeto Wthis principle of severing the provinces, and making aistricta independent pake of fthe , allowing them ' ! fa ; falspt9r_ '^Wrie^e/ n le ! #»nia be an abaurdity for~e distriot to be virtually jyperiftfd f froitf!tii»"restef the-protiace.ftod y«t» h&ti the intoagettienfi of vWial6.ii®ir».":: If >the Hdtiee though ißaf PfdnnfliaJ Gforewiniißnte had done their workf and should cease ~to ; exists let' it ;: beseM*d plainifj but let ; it ! taot W aese^ted 1 by auoh an jaeidious : -thii, 5 which could only create discord and confusion. £(3heere.3 i ■'■Ms Jotxm i «eld that he tapproAohed ; tw coiveideration J of/ the prinriplesi of *- %hb ] bo far as they aimed at that object whioh he had alwayeihdneetly endeavoured to attain, witfrsoaie-djaddace, as the Bill was somewhat complicated in its 'protisione,' and er msinly involved coneideratiop4 ofiai.. financial character, while he wae almost entirely at a loss as to the natJWB/oi tbwwflnanoial arrange-

xnents whioh, they -had-been informed, the • GoVernment .Tpwpossrfr, >;BEe should Boards. ..until ty® kn© w "what was the cum likelyxio:be> required to pay such endowment, andrtkborwhst wre the provisions of the Aot to repeal the Surplus QKevenue Act. It seemed to; bfiS proposed that the equivalents were to bjr paid ojif efi that portion of the revenue wjiibh exists ihe provinces receive any pssrtieo o£:tiieir] share; and .weroiitcnot for tSat coneideratiOfli and others comparatively did not think there would be nJuoWdiecussion on the Bill in that House. many years had been allowed to pasaj away without a measure of this; kind having Been brought down by the Cfoyernmeotreepißcially • efter-the financial re* solutions of 1856 had been passed. A Bill of a--more iftdui&J nature, bringing inte consideration question« of » financial and ©onefiJuttonaT character, irhioh might, formerly have been! avoided, waa now', brought.dojfO and muet ; be- fully considered by members. Hfe regretted that - while it went so far-it diet, not I go farther, !He.would much rather hive saen « measure; which would.have included: 4he i alteration- pf ■ th# Superratendenta from elected to! !nop»inftf«d; officers.;' This w'ai the proper method of beginning the reformation, of Goverhmentei Were he to. propose such?a moluiioß, he; should change the whole financial system of ther-country, the aid given to the. ProTinQiat apd etfdeavour to see what could ibe done to! relieve.'the Srovjnjoifi Gota^nmenit«i;from , their-debts. He should sw&ethe law" of ?the Country' w> far uniform M -to! relieve! (the j &6tir"the~njan»gemißnt"*-of ■ gaols—and lunat» •sjrafiw; j perhaps it would ,be. better for feel General QoverkimenLta takfl. over thft Having done this, he should place a aMtfctea $uperratjsri(leht ove'r'flig::*£ss»;;<s iproTOU, tJnfartunate as their posifiod Was wi&regard to this question, he thought be his duty not to oppoee rwdajg. ;; :] ■ ' thbtight; it was- ifea* tieGoaenimejit Kad .not insdf this a measlire. tjpdn which to .ba#e; their tianure of ojGSce, b*o»(Ue theffgiVe members 'lik* him« Mjf; wa ! jof expressing ,their Opinifene mo»fre«ly. An organic measure of this fand cotfid not be attempted without <&figer to the Cfenititotion. In order to pwpwly appreciate the effect ."the Bill would wre,- it necessary to review the whole . iKstoij of provincial institutions. Provincial itStitutioEs, sueh.aa.were estabhshed under % Gonfftitution Act of New Zealand, had tjeen;; formerly introduced into Perni ;l but the governor of Jthat! country had.' the Siftftom to summon the General Assembly before initiating the provincial instituiioas, and the consequence,was that municipal institutions were substituted for provin* nu. ; Before the present Conetitution came into operation the whole power actually restec in the.Governor, and the people had no voice is the xnanagement of public affaire j and the dreemstance* in which they were then placed made them exceedingly anxious to have such tli voice. Before bringing the Conetitution lute luFce, the then Governor laid its provisions before the people, by whom they were disCQseed; and ever since the introduction of provincial institutions into this country he had never, ceased to regard that introduction M an error. It was rery natural titatiihoee who took » leading part in the introduction ofUieOonetitation of the country should feel

a strong desire to see its provisions properly carried out. It was unfortunate that the General -Assembly -was not -called -together before'the inititffatfn'of theprovincial institationi, as it might have prevented those who were in favour of euch institutions from laying gueh a main fofte upon power: as they did. The Lieutenarit-Governor did not appear to hare bad sufficient determination to hand over to the General Assembly those powers which properly should hare been given to it; add a large number of executive departments, which ought never to have gone from the control of the General Government, were pieced under the control of the provincial executive*—such departments as gaols, police, and resident magistrates ; and the leading advocates of provincial institutions were the more anxious to grasp all the powers they could as they thought they saw little chance of a central government being established which would consult the interests of the people, as rightly or wrongly they were of opinion that the central government must necessarily be formed of men-who would be merely tools in the hands of the head of the Government, The consequenoe - was .that a,n antagonism sprung up between the Provincial and General Governments which had subsisted till the present day, and had gendered it impossible for the General Government to. attempt to resume those powers which it. abaiKioned in 1853-4. But circumstances were now; changed 5 for the .Gregajcal Assembly was as much imbued with; » desire ibr th# promotion of ; provincial in-, tereste a* the provincial legislatives themselves.; The question now. -was, how could they best harmonise' these feelings, and show that,the interests of both parties -were identical,,so, as Jk>_induee iojiurxender. those powers which, . were improperly confided to them, in the first ] instance. He hoped there .might be a middle.party in fcbat House.; '.one: that would loolc upon the .question in toe light that.*s the Provincial.Governmente must qecesttrily die in the course of time,, they ehould die natural, death, and not he 'poisoned ;; not that he meant to say that the Bill would have iuch a tendency.. ... Let them be gradually, absorbed in the : General, Government, beginning with ~ the, surrender of. the powers improperly confided to them. The duties of the Provincial Governments were essentially, to colonise the country, and to that duty they should be strictly confined. Let' the General Government not 'trench upon that duty, and, let the Provincial Governments surrender those functions which properly belonged to the General Government; and then both Governments would resume their natural positions. When he looked at the ; disasters and confusion into which the country was falling, Jie could not but feel that the General, Legislature should take upon, itself those functions which properly belonged to it. There was no reason why the waste lands of Otago and other provinces, which had been prudently husbanded, should be thrown into a common stock with those provinces-which had been reckless ; and he could understand a conservative feeling on the part of the proviees on this account:, but he could nofci understand why the, provinces should wish ( to keep those powers which'were merely l involving them in difficulty, debt, and embarrassment. There' was no reason -why law* relating to • police, scab,* &c, should be made: for each separate-province. . Administration might properly be left; to the Provincial Governments j '-but there was no necessity for a House of Commons in each province.. In eaca province there was the whole machinery ef-ea-Iroperial- Government. He did not say that this Bill would havethe effect of abolishing this state of things ; but the discussion of that night would lead'the people of the colony to thoroughly consider the whole question. He wanted to see a Government sitting on those benches who would have the boldness to ask th»people to reconeiderthe Constitution §0 far as regarded tbis question. The first towards reconsideration of_thaquaatiori would be to convert the elected Superintendents into the nominated heads of the Executive departments of their provinces. Much mieohief—wa» introduced into the colony from allowing the head, qf a, province.. to be an eleoted partisan. Hβ 1 asked those Superintendents who sat in that House to modestly resume their position as : private individuals, and to abandon all that flash and humbug by which Superintendent* had betti-dißtraguished for the last twelve years, and attend strictly to their, proper functions.of colonising the country". The Provincial Government of Nelson had carried on its ■ business much more I modestly than any other Provincial Governj ment, and • had -in. consequence done its work [better. When they got out of Nelson they found assumption , and what* -he 1 might call political vanity running rampant —political vanity pervading all classes of the community, and culminating in the Provincial Governmente. It woe true this state of things was pui a k stop to; and he hoped the Provinoia). Governments > "Would ; .come forward and express their willingness to aid in the work. He also wanted to see a Government bold-enough to go to the country and appeal "to'thVpedple-for their opinion upon tbis subject. The House, was incompetent to forte j an opinion upon the subject from the preponderating influence of the provincialists in it. They were told by the I leader of the provincialists party '- that the; :Tbj^ A .Million,Loan and the Native >: war<were the cause of all these difficulties ; but he_maimainei Jh*t_itJKWJtb.e .extraiaganceof the Provincial Governmente. [No, no; ■hear, hear.] They wearer told that-separation ■ was the grand panacea; that more power 'must be given to- the provinces ; but rather (than do that he would prefer that the whole property of the colony should be divided • amongst the inhabitants, and then each of them would get a share. As long as the [Provincial Legislatures existed, he, believed their" doctrine would be to plunge up to their inecli~m 'debt. XetTHe~lu{ufe take care of itself. We-shall have a consolidation of loans, and the whole colony will have to help jus to bear our burdtro.L If'the Ministry were I confident that their measure was sound, let them appeal to the people, who he believed would raise their voice against any antagonism between the provincial and general interests. He looked upon the Bill as calculated simply to introduce further dissension [hear»-hear], and. would render it almost impossible for either the General or Provincial Gorernments to carry out the functions of the Bill; and therefore he should not now support the Bill. He wanted something more sound, and logical. He did not blame the Ministry for the character of the BUI, as it was almost impossible for any Ministry to judge correctly as to what direotion the legislation of the colony should take. [Cheers.]

Mr G-raHAK said that many persons in the colony bettered proTincial institutions had done much good, and had still a great work to do. He had read the Bill carefully through, and thought it was a perfect medley. It would introduce separation into all parts of the colony. "Were the provisions of the Bill carried out there would be an offioial to almost every settler. In England there were only forty counties, which were found to be quite sufficient, and only 178 corporations, and great care was taken to limit the number of corporations as much as possible. The number of the counties was the same now as it was nearly 800 years ago 5 and 118 corporations were in existence at the time of WiUiam lIL Every endeavour was made to avoid splitting | up the country in the manner proposed by this BilL .And for what purpoae waa the colony to be eplit npP Simply to strengthen the hands of a General Government which was keeping up a Native war. Had the management of Native affairs been vested in the hand* of Provincial Governments there would i have been no Native war in the province of Auckland. He did not want to see a change of Government, but the change he wanted was a reduction of expenditure, and if it were necessary to effect this object that a change of Ministry should take place let it take place; if they were obliged to have second-rate men they might at least get honest men. [Laughter.] The Ministry ehould be bound to carry on the Government at an expense of £500,000 a year. At present every adult male was taxed at the rate of £25 a year. Let each island be governed at an expense of £260,000 a year; let there be a federal union between then)] and let them separate for say seven yean. [Laughter.]

MrTJox must confese.to feejung gome surprise that the fioK; : "rfieiW(e» 2J foi , Christchurch, ■who—had-eono 00 earnestly -in to-4he- whole

question -of centralism and provincialism, had not pone equally earnestly into the object of tlm Bill. He had not heard any member of the Government make any remark which could lead the House to suppose that this was not a ministerial question. The hon. member for the Northern Division had suggested that the Bill should be postponed till next session, but that proposition was always made whenever a Bill of this sort was brought before the House. The Drovincialists had done their beat outside the House to mystify the whole question. He had read in the newspapers of the province in which he resided that it was the desire of the General Government to possess themselves of the territorial revenue of the provinces. Such an assertion had not been made in that House, because it waa too well known there , that the Government, had neither . said nor done anything tto warrant such an assertion ; and he called; upon the leading .Provincialists to deny the statement. It seemed to be implied by the absence of, the hon. member of the G-oldfields; that there was no necessity for legislation on : this subject; but he maintained that there; was, and always had been,, a necessity for, legislation on this . subject. Mr Cox then: commented upon the remarks of Mr Travere relative to the introduction of provincial; institutions. They all knew that the adminis-. tration of the affaire of the out districts hadbeen handed over to the Provincial Goyero-i rnents, and; that.: out districts often sent up complaints to that. House ; but who were the settlers in out districts to apply to if not to that House ? There was in reality no essential difference between centralism and provincialism ; but were they not all provincialista ? Their first duty waa to the prpvince in which! they resided, and then .to the General Gay-; eminent; but it was only proper that, the i powers of the Provincial Governments should, be defined. What he complained of in the "Proviooial system" was 4hat ite upholders; did not desire to extend it, as they opposed the formation of new provinces. The centralists, as they were called, on the contrary, desired to extend provincialism, or local selfgovernment, as the wants of the colony required. The House had never yet heard what the actual policy of.the provincialists was, and he should therefore much like to hear it ; which, howeyer, he feared that -he should not do. Hβ shonld like to know what their policy would be with, regard to Native affairs and the consolidation of loans. This Bill provided for the distribution of revenue. So far as the province of Canterbury was conoerned, the Provincial Council,, inasmuch as they could not control the Superintendent, could not, no matter what the members' wishes might be, get sums put down on the estimates as they wanted. As this Bill did not, deal with the whole question of provincialism versus centralism, he hoped that hon. members who did not approve of all its details would nevertheless allow it to pass its second reading, as it could be amended in committee.

Mr Btrcrarr could not -agree with the advisability of the second reading being postponed till members had consulted with-their constituents upon the Bill. It was their duty at once to express an l opinion upon its principle. At the end of last session a distinguished member of that House had stated that it was necessary that a ,stop, should be put to all tinkering of the Constitution, and that effectual barriers, must be raised up to guard the rights of the provinces ; and so much notice was taken of this declaration, that it wae announced in the Governor's prorogation speech, that a measure for dealing with local self-government would be introduced next session, The question to be considered was not wb.ethee.tbe Bill .would .destroy provincial institutions or not, but whether it provided institutions suited to the wants of the country. The great evil under which our distriots now laboured was that they di 3 not get a fair share of the provincial Tevenues, and had this . Bill provided an efficient remedy for the evil he. should have supported it; .but although he should support itff second reading, as affirming the principle of ' self-government, he should do so no further unless the Bill were materially altered. The difficulty which had been alluded to by Mr Brandon,, that no provision was made to compel a district separated from a, province to pay something to-wards-the cost of the public works which had been executed in it at the cost of the province, was one deserving much consideration, as he looked upon the union of the various districts of a pjovinoe as a sort of partner- - ship. The Provincialistß ought not to be surprised at ; the introduction of this Bill, as it was the natural result of their neglect of thel-outlying districts. The machinery of the Bill wae too cumbrous, and although it might pass its second reading, he doubted whether it would get further. He had no complaint himself to find with Provincial Governments, if the- 1 out-districts were only provided for; and he did not at all agree that Provincial Governments were ' very expensive, as he thought that the new mode of-government proposed to be introduced would be much more expensive. The Bill had been drawn up in too much fear of the Provincial Qrori ernments, and would please neither one side nor the other. He should vote for its second reading simply as an affirmation of the principle of local self-government.

The Cou>mJJt Tbbasttber, who was received with oheerfl, said that a great. deaL.of irrelevant matter had been imported:* intojthe debate. In thie, and in every other great debate which had taken plage this session, the question of provincialism versus centralism had been dragged in head and shoulders, and the unwarrantable assumption had been made that the Government waa hostile to provincialism, and that its sole aim in all its actions was the entire destruction of provincial institutions. It was useless to repeat denials of this assumption ; time would show its falsity, and upon time the Government would rely for ita. vindication. No doubt it was perfectly correct that the Bill had been copied from the laws of another colony which had no provincial institutions; but, at the same time, this only rendered the subject more difficult. In all parts of the country symptoms of disaffection with the existing government were shown, and it therefore became thednty of the Government to endeavour to dispel that disaffeotion. Unless it did so, it would be abdicating its functions, and shirking its dutj. This was the justification whioh the Government made for bringing forward this measure. It was a most impotent, unjust, and unwarrantable conclusion, to oome to, that because Provincial Governments existed in the country, no steps were to be taken to dispel the disaffection. There was no reason whatever for importing into the discussion the great question of centralism, versus provinoialiem, whioh might, however, some day arise. It had been said that the territorial revenue of the provinces would be included in this Bill, but it would now be seen thatauch a charge was quite unfounded. It might be asked what was the necessity for. this Bill ? The grievances alluded to by the last speaker were one reason; another reason had also been alluded to, that even when sums were voted for out districts by Provincial Councils there was no guarantee that, the sums voted would be expended for their benefit. The Bill would remedy both taeee avila. He denied m toio that s> district formed under this Act would be virtually separated from the province. It might as. well ba. said that, a town with a municipal corporation was abstracted from the province. Hβ did not mean to Bay that it was a perfect model of a Bill; but in one respectit deserved that encomium aa being an exceed-, ingly elaborate and finished piece of professional workmanship. Arguments might be used as to whether the endownent clauses could be carried out without trenching upon funds which could be used in works that would be more profitable to the country. All such objections took the character of good comraittoe objections, but not one of them touched the question before the principle of the BilL The simple issue before the House —was a measure wanted, not to be forced upon the country, but as a permission, to be introduced when wanted—was the the House to saj that in no part of the country do &om gritraocei ezjit which had

so often been complained of. - Hon. members who might support the second reading wquld, if the amendments thej wished to see introduced were not made in committee, have a perfect right to oppose the third reading. ■Whenever a Government desired to introduce new institutions, it was their duty not to press them forward at a greater pace than the country was prepared to go with it. They had heard sneers an& inuendoes respecting such a permission, but the Government treated them with comtempt; and it cwas an acknowledgment of strength on the part of a Government to do so. If the -Provincial Governments really desired to aonsult the interest of their provinces, they would do wisely if they came in and endeavoured to make "this a really good measure. He, for one, would be prepared to allow these institutions to be brought in through provincial agency. The sole object of the Government was s to give that relief which was demanded by the and every part of the country. > If the Provinendeavour to make the Bill.acceptable to the people, and suitable to the wants of the country, it would, iave a most elevating .effect upon, provincial institutions..: A lij Jhey. ;,wpuld only believe that those who eaf on tlfbie' benches really desired the welfare 6f the provinpes, end would come toid wqrk. they would be doing more, .thin in, their utmost fondness for provincial 'Invitations they had ever promised to do. , The unseemly " logrolling" in the Provincial CottncilsV would be rectified by a self-acting . machinery, which would do away with' all necessity for combinations. Provincial Councils and Governments, unfettered by such combinations, would be able to devote all their attention to the great work of colonizing the country—of settling the people -on tb.e land— which was now too often forgotten in the unseemly scrambles for the revenye._ A great work had been done in this direction by the Wellington Provincial ! G : ovßrnment,*by establishing road districts and giving them equivalents; but this was precisely what this Bill proposed to do. It had beren said, * l but you will leave the Provincial Governments no power to carry out thiigrea.t"work P" Without going into figures, he need only refer to the. frequency with which, road^' districts were deprived of their equivalent through Jihe money being wanted for some other purpose ; and this Bill was to render the equivalent certain The Bill, so far from destroying provincial institutions, would rather, tend>totne higher development. If the House would pass its second reading, the .Govemmqnt would be quite prepared to make considerable amendments in the Bill in committee. : But if the great territorial.lords, the .little ones too, thought that by votiog,iagainst the Bill they were going to were very. much, mistaken $ andie .would tell them further, that instead. _or ; atai;gatherer and a power like this Parliament, they .would have a tax-gatherer of a very different descriptiion, who would have a verj master—popular influence, which would, nqfe haye th.c slightest consideration for their ippokets. Jjet.jiot those who were in favor of:tiE>s|Bi&bft.r .disheartened if its second reading wergi negatived, as much would have been achjeyecU, [ftheere..]

Mr Bbznoldb had been ;setoniehfed that the Colonial Secretary made no explanation when moving the. eecond reading-of.the Bill, and had expected to hear hon., member for Hampden had been- commissioned to explain the objects of the Bill, - .That hon. member had, however, said little to the point. He could not see that much earing could be effected, even if the General Government were to manage the affaire of the province* ; nor could the departments now managed by the Provincial; Severnmenta ; be better managed by, the General Government. , The principle.of the Bill seemed simply to, transfer the just rights which the provinces had under the Constitution Act to manage their own affaire to the General Government. In the passed providing for the management of the out-districts, which was not half so cumbrous as the Bill before the House. The provincial Bill, i* was true, had not been passed very long." In the Province of Otago, at any rate, a full' share of the revenue had been spent in the construction of roads in the out-districts Hβ could not support the second reading of the Bill. He was ; thoroughly in favour of giving a double equivalent to all rates raised in the out-districts, and imposing the expense of the construction and maintenance of main roads on the province, but the Bill waa quite unworkable.

TheJB[OT. there eeemedto be Borne misapprehension on the part of hon. members of the realeffeofcof the. vote they might 'give on that occasion. The real principle they ought to cherish was the principle which provincial Institutions were formed to carry , out. This principle was local self-gov-ernment, but it was not no* carried out. In consideration of the circumstances of the country we had had. given to us institutions in addition to the General Government. Hβ did not agree with all the remarks that had been made with regard to the past conduct of Provincial Governments; no doubt they had committed many errors, but it must be remembered that they had been exposed to great temptations. Still in the whole provincial institutions had worked well.aiid the Colony would not have been in its present position had it not been for those institutions. The defect in the system was that though Provincial Governments had been very useful in their own provinces, their interferenoe in that Houea had been exceedingly misohievous. The constant hostility in,which provinoialiste had placed: themselves, against every Colonial Government had made the Government very unstable; and such a constant ohange of ministries as had taken place must be utterly destructive of the efficiency of any Government. He had no hostility whatever to provincial institutions; but day by day and year by year he felt the more strongly that the interference of provincial authorities in that House would render the Government of the colony more ineffectual, expensive and difficult. Still this was not the cause of the introduction of the Bill. The colony had outgrown that necessity for provincial institutions which was felt when it was first founded. More centres of population had grown up, and this was the cause of those constant complaints which were made. The Sill woe not. an insidious attack upon provincial institutions ; it was an honest attempt to supply those means for the administration of local affairs in outlying districts which the Provincial Governments had failed to supply: If this, question were made the battle-ground, he said boldly that it was made so by the Provincial, part;. Last session they were told by a leading member of 4he Provinoial party that an attempt would be made by them; to undo thai tinkering with the Constitution that had taken place. That hon. gentleman had done his best to effect his object, and if he'had failed it was for want of support. He would, ask hon. members who said this measure was an attack upon i the provinces, whether they deemed that the powers given,to District Boards by the Bill mighj; not be given to those Boards? It should not be left to the provincial legislatures to dear with the matter, because the interests of the oat-districtfl were jo utterly diverse to those of the towns that pro? I vinoial legislatures could not properly deal with it; because provincial legislatures had not legally power to deal with the question ; and, moreover, a question affecting the entire colony ought properly to be dpalt with by the General Assembly. For year after year the want which the Bill waa intended to supply had been pressed upon the attention of the House. Last session the Government promised to consider the question; they had drawn up a Bill which they considered would j meet the necessities of the case ; and he would put it to hon. members whether, under these circumstances, they would, by voting against the second reading declare, not only that they would not even consider the Bill at all, but would not even consider the question of whether it were possible to meet the wants of the out-districts. The Government would be prepared to allow of many amendment* in committee ; and even, if the Bill were not passed this session {here would still be a foundation laid upon wbioh another Bill oould be coa«

ssruoi©3". A work" bOlue magnitude could scarcely be eompleteiiin one seision, such an Altf.rat.ion in .the Gonstitution..might.be.lhe work of years. He sympathised with the disinclination of some hon. members to pnss the financial clauses before the financial statement was made by the Colonial Treasurer; but the Government had no intention of asking them to pass those clauses until th« financial statement was made. In voting for the second reading hon. members would be simply affirming the general principle of the Bill. Mr Yogel thought that an adjournment would be desirable, and moved that the debater be adjourned till the next day". The motion for adjournment was then put and carried.