THE ASSEMBLY.

Press, Volume XII, Issue 1474, 30 July 1867, Page 3

THE ASSEMBLY.

[Abridged from tho • Wellington Independent.'] Wednesday, July 24. 2?be S?_akeb took the chair at five o'clock. MHAKCIAL CCOOtITTEB. Vogel, in moving that a Select ComButtee _c- appointed to inquire into the financial condition of the colony, and to rfcoramend an equitable apportionment of colonial and provincial liabilities, with a view to end the indefinite liability of the Southern provinces for Northern expenditure, and to X !fv!° N ?' th6 ' n provinces the control of "orthera aSsirs within their respective limits, Wfc power to call for persons and papers, Jt to consist of Mr Bell, F Mr Mr %es, Dr Feath.rst6n, Mr'McLean, Moorkonse, Mr J. C. ___?£* *S -'f flHMMoiij and the mover, ■"**» apprehended there would not be much E to the gating of the com__ST*_ n hoped the motion w ould »°t b ° v^\L-^ ermnent q ueßti <> n i it would be of „„? ■ V twer Bmade so, because he was offil ? T Q that wh *tever Government were in 2 ,e appointment of such a committee sEi- 9 ,, Tho resolution aimed ___ri^W TO * v T ,0 «"»» one to give the KEtatl* tbe Nortbem Island * Wer tWi S* """"Bon** of Native affairs; coW 5 "*' t FIaCB tbe fin ancial affairs of the JW« a better condition. Whatever they _ o rhll y^ J CO ? gratulato, 7 addresses, it could |o be denied that the war had been imything StJS 8 £««y compared the prebSlTS 1 * 001 * *&** ™* their condition thii nt W commenced they would see that rti-i.W reault the y had attained was had learnt that the best plan was to SL lw ****** "lone. They had got to look upon murders with more than before, and they had learnt that »_tkL™ to have set wars with tho ? *?* a thing we need no* be Mhamed of, as all nations had learnt that it &£»?£, m ayß fe *P e <*ient to stand upon their «_nity_ Th, best thing they could do was to

- let local matters be settled locally. They were 1 not getting any s_b*tanti-l return for the large 1 sums they had spent, nor any guarantee against a general rising. The only means by ■ which such a guarantee could be obtained ! was by placing the management of Native ■ affairs in local hands ; unless they did so they " must always look for the Native difficulty I breaking cut again. Ho believed the opinion : which prevailed most largely, especially in the > Middle Island, was that if they did not treat 1 Native affairs as a matter of so much import- ■ ance, and dealt with them as with other sub jeefs, they would be much more successful ' From wW he had heard, no attempt had ' iieen marie to orcuiL-p that system of police • which th.'.v were led to be! -re two or three ye.irs : ago th* Government w<- c prepared to c .rrv out. Tlftine ha-1 <■ -ne when they should • respond w ' d-nruui m--de >yv a la- ;e -v■. • tion of the Nor.li :.?!an-"i. : ?■■?<■■ -he i::h_bi- " tants t v ie control of their o.vn affairs. If i there was any meaning in seir-roiianeo, ir , meant that the people of the North Island i should have the control of their own affairs. I He did not wish to force this upon the North i Island, because he believed they wero quite ripe for the management of their own affairs. > It was an arrogant assumption to say that ' the provinces were not capable of managing Native affairs ; becanse in every case where negotiations with the Natives had been carried on by Provincial authorities, they had I been conducted more successfully than they commonly wero by the General Government. The first object of the resolution waß therefore to bring some of the representatives of the North Island together to ascertain whether they would be willing to take over the management of Native affairs. Of course the absolute amount of control suitable for them to exercise would be settled by the committee. It was necessary to appoint a committee to consider the question of finance, because members were really not aware of the state of financial affairs. The provinces were not aware that a system of finance was gradually contracting around them by which they were gradually being deprived of their revenue. He would quote from the financial returns of 1855 and 1856, which would show that the three-eighths said to be paid to the provinces was a mere chimera, they received it by way of a loan The provinces received that year £176,812, and there was owing to them £112,000. They were brought in debt £36,000, and £61,000 was charged back to them, making a total of £97,000, which was deducted from the £176,812, thus leaving about £80.000 due to them out of a whole revenue of £800,000. Was it not therefore necessary that there should be a strict examination into the accounts of the colony. By a clause hurriedly introduced into the Appropriation Act by the hon. member for Nelson, the savings of the year were carried to the next year'B revenue, instead of being given to the provinces as surplus revenue. By this means one of the most important provisions of the Surplus Revenue Act was repealed. The same system had been used with respect to the savings in the provincial expenditure as well as the general expenditure. [The hon. member then quoted from the financial returns to bear out his assertions.} The system actually encouraged the provinces to expend every farthine that was voted. The unauthorised expenditure was, moreover, charged back upOn the last year's revenue, and some of the provinces actually brought in debtor where money had been saved upon authorised provincial expenditure. These things showed that an adjustment of financial affairs was absolutely necessary. It might be said that the provinces deeply in debt would profit at the expense of those less in debt; but he shoud be sorry to see anything of this sort done. Whatever new system might be initiated, they ought to wind up honourably, and take into consideration the respective financial positions of the provinces. The reason why the finance of the provinces was contracted in this way was, because the revenue was improperly charged with sums which should be charged to loanß. The cost of defence should be recouped from loan ; and the cost of removal of the seat of Government should be charged on a loan extending over a series of years, and ! should not have been charged upon the ' revenues of the provinces. In an adjustment, 1 they would ask that both these items should be recouped to revenue. The objects of the committee should be to ascertain the best mode of adjusting the financial affairs of the provinces, and wh-," sums could be recouped to the revenue for the benefit of tlie provinces. He believed the operation of consolidating i.. loans would be immensely profitable, and while they were about it, he thought they would have no difficulty in raising a loan sufficient to relieve them of all their difficulties. [Laughter.] It might also be a question worthy of discussion by the committee as to whether it would not be advisable to borrow in advance of their wants. It might be objected that the resolution did not deal with the whole question of provincialism ; but unless the consolidation of the loans also embraced the settlement of the revenue of the different provinces, there would be an end of the provinces. In concluding, Mr Vogel said they must recognise the fact that a general desire was felt for a settlement of the financial difficulties of the provinces, I and it was absolutely necessary to come to some arrangement. [Cheers.] Mr Campbell seconded the motion.

The Colonial Tbbasttbeb said the remarks of the hon. me_aber required no lengthened comments from him 5 and he believed the conclusion he had arrived at was that to which the greater part of the House had come—that the hon. member had not made out his case ; he had dealt with old subjects, upon which he had throjrn no new light. Upon Native affairs they had a rechauffe of very Btale remarks. They had been told that large sums had been spent on Native affairs—that they knew before (laughter) ; that they had obtained no substantial return —that they were aware of. [Laughter], Mr Fitzherbert then commented on the several points of Mr Vogel's speech. The hon. gentleman had alluded to the calmness with which the news of the late murders had been received ; but he (Mr Fitzherbert) I drew an entirely opposite deduction from that fact to that drawn by the hon. member ; and considered that it proved that the Government were very careful about rushing into war, and really adopted the principle which the hon. member advooated—expediency. In endeavouring to prove that the management of Native affairs should be vested in the provinces, the hon. member had said what the country wanted was a substantial guarantee ; but what else could be meant by a substantial guarantee than taking the Natives' lands? And how Tvas it possible to adopt the principle of expediency and yet obtain this substantial guarantee ? If thero was one thing more than another to whioh the Government had given in ..its adhesion —it was that of police; and j although the hon. gentleman had complained very much that the number of colonels, majors, and captains in tbe service of the colony was as great as ever, yet his statement was not at all in accordance with the real facts of the case. No stronger argument could be used to prove that tha Government did not desire to rush into war than the fact that though they had proposed to organize a police force, they had not done so, because they did not consider it to be wanted, and relied upon other means to settle the Native difficulty. The House would remember that though the hon. gentleman had said that negotiations with the Natives had been better managed by Provincial than by General authorities, yet he had not favoured them with a single instance. The hon. gentleman had come to the conclusion j that in the year 1855-6 the provinces had only received £80,000 out of the Customs' revenue ; but without going into detail, had not the hon. gentleman proved that the nine provinces had subsisted for twelve months upon £80,000, exclusive of the land revenue; and some provinces had no land revenue? The hon. gentleman had proved too much. With the criticisms of the hon. member upon the insertion of a certain clause in the Appropriation Act the present Government had nothing whatever to do. The hoa. gentleman had suggested tint the of removing the seat of C ■-eminent should be charged as a loan. la.. *ti Fitzherbert) had mudc a like proposition v or three years ago, and it was opposed by the hon. member. The hon. I member had also announced himself a convert

"to flieTplan of borrowing, not only for immediate but for future"■want-.''" Of course there were different opinions on matter-* of finance ; no objection could be taken to the hon. member holding his own opinion. With regard to the proposed financial arrangement, the Government had for some time had under its consideration a financial arrangement which would not only consolidate the debts of the colony, and give the endorsement of the whole colony to the creditors, but also remove as far as possible all just cause of discontent amongst the different provinces about financial arrangements. It would also settle a portion of the revenue upon the provinces, and would adjust past liabilities in no niggard spirir. Most of the arguments of the hon. :n-.Mub.?r were stale; but conside-ing the quarter from '.vheru-o the resolution came, it hr-;-.:n>* n-ct'.t.sarv for the Government to con-

: =idor in -.vhar ru inner they should deal with j it, a;id <thh-.m_:i tey knew that but a lame ease wouiu bo io.de> our yet they had no desire to baulk ao investigation on a subject of so much importance. But although the Government wished to do everything to meet the wishes of the House, yet, considering the quarter whence the resolution came from, the leader of the Opposition, they could not with any due regard to their own self-respect meet the resolution any other way than by moving an amendment. The opposing force was drawn up in hostile array, and although the trumpet gave forth but a squeak, it wa3 nevertheless a hostile squeak. The Government proposed to give the committee unlimited power to deal with the question enunciated in the resolution, which was to adjust the financial affairs of the colony, with a view to end the unlimited liability of the Southern provinces for Northern expenditure. He intended to move as an amendment that the words between " appointed" and " limits" be left ■ out, and tbe following inserted: "for the special object of ascertaining, first, whether the indefinite liability of the Southern provinces for Northern expenditure can be limited, and if so, whether any recommendation can be made for the equitable apportionment of the colonial and provincial liabilities; second, whether, and if so, in what manner the control of Native affairs can be conferred upon the Northern provinces within their respective limits." The difference between the resolution and the amendment was this, that the hon. gentleman asked for a committee to inquire into the financial state of the colony, and was thus taking their own work out of the hands of the Government. If the hon. gentleman's opening remarks ware to be believed, he oould not refuse to accept the amendment. At the same time the Government carefully guardad itself against being supposed to think that any good would come of the committee (hear, hear), but inasmuch as there was a prevalent opinion in the Southern Island that the people of the North Island were profiting largely by the defence expenditure, it was very desirable that the House should be invited to inquire into the matter for themselves. The Government were waiving a good deal in consenting to the appointment of this committee, as it was in reality a committee of Superintendents (hear, hear) ; and he asked the House to consider what the Government were really doing. Moreover, this was tho first instance in the history of New Zealand where the practice of submitting the Superintendents to the ordeal of election by the people had been transgressed. What did he mean by this ? Why, simply that all the members of the committee but two were elected Superintendents, and the hon. mover had nominated two himself. The Government would, however, ask the House the next day that Mr Hall, as a member of the Ministry, should be placed on the committee ; for although Mr Richmond's name had been placed on the committee, yet he must be looked upon as the Taranaki representative. With these remarks he would move the amendment.

Mr Cableton wished to intimate his intention of moving a further amendment at a proper time. He should vote for the amendment, but could not accept the amended resolution, because the resolution was itself a sham, and the amendment did not entirely divest it of thiß character. It contemplated separation, but only went half way ; and he disliked half measures. He would move, when the proper time came, as an amendment, that all tbe words after " that " be left out, and the following inserted:—"the indefinite liability of the Southern provinces for Northern expenditure would be most effectually discharged by insular separation." He called upon those Auckland members who were pledged to separation to support this amendment. Dr E'EATHEKSiON thought that the great questions involved in tho resolution should not he discussed at this stage of the matter. The nature of the resolution had been misunderstood by the Hon. Colonial Treasurer, and the framer of it had no intention to deprive him of the management of the finances of the colony. The real object of it was to ascertain whether some arrangement could not be made to relieve both islands from interference in their own affairs by the other :. the South Island from liability to pay tho expense of Native affairs; and the North Island from the interference of the South Island with Native affairs, which had been most injurious. From this the question would naturally arise as to whether the management of Native affairs might not be properly handed over to the provinces. The consideration of this question had been long asked for by the colony, and the resolution could not be interpreted as a slight on the Government. He was glad to find that his hon. friend looked upon the matter in this light, and had made a concession j' and he now rose to express a hope that the mover of the resolution would accept the concession. With regard to the composition of the committee, the Government had just cause of complaint, and he was quite sure the party of whom he was a member would be quite willing to accept the gentleman proposed by the Government.

Mr Vogel said he was willing to accept the amendment. The Hon. Colonial Treasurer had misunderstood him with regard to the £80,000 given to the provinces ; he had simply shown them that by the accounts it appeared that the provinces were only entitled during the year to rather under £80,000.

The Colonial Secbetaby said it could not but be gratifying to the Government to find that their amendment was so generally acceptable to the House. He was glad to find that the hon. member for the city of Wellington had spoken so early in the debate, as much irritating discussion had probably thus been avoided. He did not wish on the part of Government to say anything that would be irritating on the question, because there was a very natural desire on the part of the House to have some authentic information upon a a subject which had been a source of much trouble and anxiety, and, he might say, misrepresentation. His hon. friend the member for the city of Wellington was sufficiently versed in Parliamentary tactics and the conduct of public affairs to know that the Government was perfectly justified in choosing to Omit that part of the resolution whioh would have taken out of their hands one of their most important functions. The Governments of the colony had for the lastfewyears suffered considerably from the knowledge that they might be only in office for a very short time. It was always a struggle with a Government to restrain from acting just according to their own wishes, because they knew their tenure of office would almost certainly be short. They felt that the consequences of their acts would be trifling j whether they acted rightly or wrongly it would be all the same the next session. In addition to this pernicious feeling, the hon. mover of the resolution proposed to superadd that of taking from them all financial matters. Nothing but the most dire consequences could have resulted had such a principle been admitted, and the Government would have been reduced to a lot of clerks carrying out the orders of the committee. That was not the position Which the House could wish the Government to occupy. The debate having become a question different from that which it was at first expected to have taken, he should not go into the question nearly so fully aB he should otherwise have done; he might, however- say that there was an opinion amongst some members that the amendment of the hon. member for the Bay of Islands was instigated by a member of the Government.

This he emphatically denied. A moment's consideration of the avowed policy of the Government would have dispelled such ao idea. The hon. member had moved the amendment without the sli 3 ' ; >t"-it instigation from the Government. [Mr C.irleton— Hear, hear.] After making some remarks on the style of Mr Vogel's speech, M • Stafford said the Government, as his hon. colleague had stated, wished Mr Hall's name to be p'.u-ed upon the committee, but at the same time wpre open to any suggestion about the comoosi : on of the committee.

Mr Moo'UiorsE would prefer his name to be taken of?the committee. He did not like the tone either of the resolution or of the amendment-, be-vsa neither distinctly sated that the Northern Island sVhiH for the future manage its own affiirs. He believed the bfv. way to put a stop to Native troubles would be to leive the Northern Island to man ace Native affairs itself, because he be'tteved ; at if such were done they would soon have tip police courts full of prosecutions of men in high office who had gone about the country in military garb cutting the throats of the Natives ; and he asked the members of the Norther Island to join with hira in asking that the management of Native affairs should be left to it, and that it should not ask for a shilling in aid of the expenses it might incur on that account. The spirit of the financial compact of 1856 had been violated by the territorial revenue of the Southern Island being interfered with, in order to spend £3,000,000 on Native wars. He should not refuse to serve on the committee, but would have preferred to see the resolution framed in the manner he had suggested. Still he would prefer to have his name struck out. He could not agree with the remarks made upon Superintendents taking part in the affairs of the House, as he did not see that the fact of their holding that office disqualified them from discharging duties of another character. The Hon. J. C. Richmond would leave it to the Auckland members to consider the prospects held out to them. He must take excoption to the statement made by the hon. member for the city of Wellington respecting the violation in 1862 of the financial compact of 1856. The hon. member must refer to the Native Lands Act. What did that Act do? It certainly almost annihilated the prospective interests of the Crown in the Native lands; but it must be remembered under what circumstances the Act was passed. Out of twentynine members for the Northern Island twenty voted for the Act [hear, hear], and the | Southern Island members, though not the movers, acquiesced in it.

'Mr Thaveks protested against- the remarks ma<le by an hon. member respecting the persons in military garb who had run about the country cutting the Natives' throats. He had come to the conclusion, after a careful consideration of the matter, that the Natives had been dealt with with the greatest mercy and consideration ; and if mistakes had occasionally been made, they had been committed without any ill intention.

Mr MooßHoasß explained that by men in military garb he did not mean officers of the colonial forces.

Mr J. O'Neill thought the turn the debate had taken showed clearly that the resolution had not been framed in the manner it should have been; it really meant the separation of the two islands, and he was glad to find that his hon. friend the member for the Bay of Islands had come to the point. He hoped the House would not assent to the doctrine of the hon. member for Westland, that the Northern Island should be made to pay for the expense of Native affairs. He should object to any financial separation of the two Islands unless it was accompanied by territorial separation. Mr Heaphy did not think it fair to charge officers of the Colonial forces with a wish to prolong the war.

Mr G. Gbabam thought that if £300,000 had been spent in war in the North Island, money had been spent in the South Island for its especial benefit. There was only one reason why he wished for separation : that there was an undue wish on the part of Southern members to prevent the South from paying any further share of the cost of Native affairs. The Northern members had protested against war ; the majority of them had done all they could to prevent war, but the Southern majority compelled them to go to war, and now they wished to avoid tho expense. There was a party of deceit and hypocrisy in the House who had urged on the war, and now flinched from putting their hands in their pockets to pay for it. The war was not at an end, as might be perceived by observing the state of affairs in the district under Major McDonnell's command, on the East Coast and in the Bay of Islands.

Mr. C. WILBON said it was well known that the Southern members had voted for the Native Lands Ace of 1862 because they were told by the Northern members that it was the only means to settle the Native troubles.

Mr McLean said the House should well consider before they adopted any of those revoluntionary changes contemplated in the resolution. [Hear, hear ] In looking round, he could not but be struck with the absence of Native representation, and he thought that the deliberations of the House would be much assisted by the presence of Native members. The Native question was a constantly recurring one, and as the Native mind was essentially retrospective, looking chiefly to the past, and very little to the future, it was necessary to be very cautious in making changes which would affect them. He believed the Natives were, under the circumstances, well governed by the Imperial Government, and the Native mind had been disturbed by the change to the Colonial Government, and it would probable greatly disturb the Native mind if another change were to take place, especially without their being consulted on the matter. As Superintendent of a small province, he also thought that small provinces were incapable of grappling with the great emergencies which sometimes arose in Native affairs. He repudiated the idea that there was a class of persons in the North Island eager for war; the cry from one end of the island to the other was "Peace." Withdrawing the means of war would, instead of making peace, have a directly opposite effect. The Southern Island had entered into the war with the North Island, and could not now honourably avoid payment of their share of the expenses.

Mr John Williamson agreed that the Natives were tolerably well managed by tbe Imperial Government, but thought the circumstances of the country were altered, and the Native Lands Act had brought them into immediate contact with the Natives, which necessitated the latter being brought face to face with tbe local authorities. : The Natives were now continually subjected to the decisions of Courts of law on all sorts of matters. If it was necessary that the Sroyinces should be governed, so far as the uropeans were concerned, by persons elected by the inhabitants of the provinces, it was equally necessary in regard to the Natives. He was happy to say that this was also the desire of the Natives themselves. The Natives now willingly offered to sell at reasonable prices to tho Auckland Government blocks of land which they had repeatedly refused to Bell to Europeans ; and they did so because they wished to have settlers amongst them. These were new features that were arising and that we could not shut our eyes to, and the Natives must be brought face to face with the Provincial Governments, and was not this what they had been struggling for—to promote that civilization which was only just dawning? The Natives in the province of Auckland were equally desirous of peace with the Europeans. He Bpoke this not as an enthusiast, but from practical experience. The Natives were strongly desirous of peace, and wished to five in subjection to the Queen's laws. Still, he called upon the Southern members to put the Northern Island in a poaiiion to employ the j Natives on pubih works, and to encourage them to remain in peace ; for he maintained that it was by the consent of the House that the colony entered into the war. [Cheers.] Mr A. S. Atkinson made some remarks about Native ailkirs at Taranaki.

The Hon. J. Hall said it appeared to him that the conclusion drawn by the hon. member for Auckland was not in accordance with his facts ; because, although it was true that the Natives by the operation of the Native Lands Aot were brought into more immediate con-

nection with the settlers, yet by the same means they weta brought more under the operation of the English law, and it was therefore unnecessary to make the special provision asked for. Still, there was one or two reasons why the management of Native affairs should not he placed in the hands of Provincial Legislatures. He did not mean to dispute that it was not desirable that the Natives should prefer to sell their lands to Superintendents in preference to private individuals, but he thought that was a reason why greater powers over the Native lands should not be given to Superintendents. TheGovernment did not deny that Superintendents had more local knowledge of Native matters than the Gorprninent; but the Government had worked, as far as possible, through the Superintendents, as lafply in the case of the Superintendent of Hawkes Bay. But if they were to hand over the raans\gement of Native ivtfairs to the provinces, they could not divest themselves of responsibility, as if any mischi-f were to arise through mismanagement the colony would have to bear the responsibility. As an illustration of the inconvenience that might arise from the management of Native affairs being handed over to the provinces, supposing the Superintendent of Auckland had been in possession of the powers asked for when the disturbances on the East Coast took place last year, the Superintendent of Hawkes Bay would not have been able to use his influence, which was exerted in so successful a manner, in the matter at all.

Mr Cableton then moved as an amendment that all the words between " appointed " and " limit" be left out, with a view to insert the following:—" to inquire whether the indefinite liability of the Southern provinces for Northern expenditure may not be most effectually discharged by insular separation." Mr O'Neill seconded the amendment. Mr Carleton's amendment was put, and lost on the voices.

Mr McLean moved that the committee be formed by ballot.

Mr Williamson- seconded the motion

The resolution, as amended by the Government, but without the names of the committee, was then put and carried on the voices.

Mr Dillon Bell suggested that it would be advisable that members should have time to consider to whom so important a task should be confided, and that it would be better to postpone the ballotting.

The Speaker did not consider it competent for the House to do so.

The ballot papers were then handed in, and after they had been examined, the Speaker announced that Messrs Hall, Williamson, Carleton, Macandrew, McLean, D. Bell, J. C. Kiehmond, Ludlam, Dr. Featherston, and the mover, were the members of the committee.