PARLIAMENTARY GOSSIP.

Auckland Star, Volume XXVIII, Issue 275, 26 November 1897, Page 2

PARLIAMENTARY GOSSIP.

NOTES FROM THE GALLERY.

A STORMY SCENE

CAPTAIN RUSSELL REPRI-

MANDED

(By Telegraph.-Parliamentary Reporter.)

WELLINGTON, Thursday.

Some discussion took place on a motion by the Premier that the House sit on Tuesday and Thursday mornings at eleven in addition to sitting on Monday evenings. The Premier accepted an amendment by Mr Buchanan that the arrangement should not beo-in until December 7th, and that on Monday and Wednesday nights the House should not sit after one a.m.

OLD AGE PENSIONS BILL. The House went into Committee on the above Bill. ... On clause 8 Mr Sligo moved to adtl in BubsectionD after "£34 per annum" (inserted yesterday after the word earnings) the words " and any superannuation allowance from any society or corporation up to £26 per annum." This would make the maximum any man could receive, including pension, £114, viz., pension £18, receipts from previous savings £36, from earnings £34, and from superannuation allowance from benefit society or corporation £26. The Committee' very soon got almost inextricably mixed up between over-lap-ping or conflicting amendments. Ridiculous points of order, personal explanations, and what Scobie Mackenzie calls "interlocutory interruptions across the table." Mr Lang protested against thrifty country settlers being burdened with the cost of pensions through the consolidated revenue, whilst at the same time they are contributing for roads and bridges through rates. Mr Taylor moved to report progress, and appoint a Select Committee,' consisting of Messrs Sligo, Morrison, Montgomery, J. Allen, Hutchison, Tanner, Seddon, and the mover to draft a Bill on the question of old age pensions, the Committee to have power to call for persons and papers and report within seven days. He said this course was the only one which would render it possible to frame a measure that ■would have any prospect of passing. Mr Larnach said he would support Mr Taylor's amendment if the Selection of the committee were left to be arranged between Ministers and the Opposition. The Hon. Hall-Jones, in the absence of the Premier, denounced the obstruction to the Bill, and stated that ho had received numerous letters and telegrams from Christchurch praying the Government to proceed with the Bill. AN OFFENSIVE EXPRESSION. Mr Lewis was proceeding to refer to the " bosh " spoken by the Minister for Works Avhen Mr Flatman called attention to the remarks. The Hon. Hall-Jones : Take no notice of it; it isn't worth it. THE DEBATE WARMS UP. The Premier said from the outset, since the Bill had been in Committee, there had been a determined attempt by the Opposition to defeat the Bill. Over 400 speeches had been made on Clause 8 alone. Mr Montgomery: It is a pity there weren't more. The Premier said : If the Opposition, led by Mr Taylor, thought they were going to override the feeling of the vast majority of the people they were woefully mistaken. He would oppose reporting progress or remitting the Bill to a committee. There was no need for the second course, as the main principle of the measure and the amount had been assented to. It was only a subterfuge, deliberately intended to wreck the Bill, which had already been considered by a Royal Commission, and had beenbefore two Parliamentary committeesin 1896 and 1897. The amendment wasnothing short of farcical. He referred to 'the act of the leader of the Opposition in (wgmatising the Bill as an imposture and afterwards going into the lobby and voting for it. There were many men in the House in a similar position who would seek by »very insidious design to ruin the Bill, but would afterwards go to their constituents and pretend they had been in favour of the measure. He challenged any member of the Opposition, instead of resorting to these dishonest tactics, to move that the chairman leave the chair and test the House on the Bill. The country having twice pronounced in favour of old age pensions he would be false to his principles did he not push the matter forward. A LIVELY SCENE.

Captain Russell asked how long the Premier could speak. The Chairman :As often and as long as he likes. The Premier said the leader of the Opposition was endeavouring to gag him and compel him to sit down. Captain Russell (rising excitedly): The Premier has deliberately stated what he knows to be untrue. The Premier : I move that the words be taken doM'n. Captain Russell: I say that what the honourable gentleman stated is untrue, and I refuse to withdraw it. The Chairman: Then it is my duty to report it to the Speaker. The Speaker having resumed the chair, Mr Guinness said, "Sir, I have to report that during the discussion on the Old Age Pension Bill in Committee, the hon. member for Hawke's Bay made use of this statement, ' The Premier has deliberately stated what he knows to be untrue.' I required him to withdraw that expression, which he refused to do, and, it being the pleasure of the Committee, I have had the words taken down, and now have the honour to report them to you." The Speaker : These words having been reported to me I must ask the honourable member for Hawke's Bay to withdraw the words or explain them. Captain Russell said he had merely asked the Chairman how long the Premier could speak, and the Premier immediately charged him with trying to gag him and compel him to sit clown. The Speaker: I understand that the honourable member does not intend to withdraw the words. Captain Russell: I only stated what I believed to be accurate. The Speaker: The honourable member must know he cannot accuse any member of this House of deliberately stating what is untrue. 1 must ask the honourable gentleman to withdraw while the House considers what steps it will take. Captain Russell then strode out of the Chamber. The Premier described what occurred in Committee, admitting that he charged the member for Hawke's Bay with attempting to gag him and compel him to sit down. He was sorry Captain Russell had used the expression, but, as the Leader of the House, it was his (Mr Seddon's) duty to move, "That this House expresses its retret that the member for Hawke's Bay id not see his way to withdraw the expression when asked to do so by the Chairman." It was generally hoped and expected that calm reflection during the adjournment would have led Capt. Russell to withdraw and apologise for his remarks,; and there was much disappointment when it was found he was still unrepentant. At halfpast seven there was full attendance of members, and all the public fife galleries were crowded. m Mr Massey quoted from standing orders Hi No. 1030 as follows: "In Committee of W the House no member shall speak for X more than 10 mhmtea at any one time, or

more than four times, on any one question s before the Committee, provided that this ] rule shall not apply in Committee to a 1 member in' charge of a Bill. The member j for Franklyn also urged that members had ] been severely overworked lately, and a < good deal of heat had been introduced into ; the debates. ] Mr Scobie McKenzie moved an amend- : ment to the Premier's motion as follows :— < "That all the words after 'that' be left ■ out, with the view of inserting the words : i ' This House, while recognising that it is : the duty of a member to withdraw any j expression ruled by the Speaker or Chair- i man of Committees to be unparliamentary, ' considers that in the case of the member for Hawke's Bay the provocation received was such as to warrant the House in proceeding no further in the matter." : Mr Alien seconded the amendment pro forma. The Minister for Lands declared that if the amendment were carried there would ; be an end to all order or decorum in the; House. It was an attempt to draw a red ' herring across the scent. The Premier's ' motion was a very mild one, and though no one on the Ministerial benches had any desire to humiliate the leader of the Opposition, the motion was necessary in order to maintain the dignity of Parliament. Had the expression been used by himself or any prominent member on the Government benches no excuse would have been received by the Opposition. He trusted the friends of Captain Russell would use their iniluence to induce him to adopt the sensible course of withdrawing an expression which the good sense of the member for Hawke's Bay must disapprove. Mr J. Allen argued that Captain Russell uttered-*ie words under provocation. Mr Hogg contended that the paramount consideration must he the maintenance of the dignity of Parliament. Mr Crowther accused Mr Taylor of bringing about the present trouble. (" Oh.") The lion, member might "oh " but he was not going to "oh him (Mr Crowther) down. He thonght Captain Russell had received ample provocation. Mr Lawry was speaking in support of the motion when Mr Pirani indulged in an incredulous laugh. " The lion, gentleman," smartly remarked Parnell, laughs at everything which does not come from himself, and what does come from him ia not worth laughing at." He said the Chairman of Committees (Mr Guinness) had been generous to a fault in the latitude he allowed members in Committee, but if Captain Russell had risen at once, withdrawn the offensive words, and apologised when he realised his mistake, he would have stood much higher in the respect of the House. Mr R. Thompson said, while making allowance for the the leader of the Opposition, nothing could exculpate Captain Russell from twice deliberately refusing to withdraw the offensive expressions. Mr Pirani compared Mr Lawry's homilies to Satan reprimanding sin. Mr Wason defended the leader of the Opposition, and, in the course of his remarks, accused the Premier of "shameful" conduct, and only escaped the same fate as his leader by promptly withdrawing the expression at the Premier's demand. Mr Flatman thought Mr Rolleston was chiefly responsible for the trouble owing to the irritating tone of his interjections while the Premier was speaking. lie hoped Captain Russell's friends would prevail on him to apologise, remembering the Scriptural promise, "He that humbleth himself shall be exalted. " Mr Sligo said he believed Captain Russell had received provocation which justified the offensive expression, yet the House should pass a motion expressing a hope that he would see fit to withdraw it. Mr Carncross pointed out the difficulty of defining the exact amount of provocation which warranted the use of offensiveexpressions, and argued that the plea would be difficult to entertain. He suggested, as a solution of the problem, a private conference between the Speaker, the Premier, and Captain Russell, with a view to arranging a modus vivendi. Mr Herries said the amendment practically regarded Captain Russell as a delinquent, but pleaded good character as palliation. Mr Duncan thought the amendment was merely an attempt to fool the House by confusing the issues. Mr Morris accused Captain Russell of deliberately assuming his present attitude as another means of blocking business and harassing the Premier. Mr Smith, in putting in a strong plea in favour of Capt. Russell, said if the motion were passed it would be a permanent record against him. Mr R. McKenzie kept the ball rolling until the supper adjournment. After further discussion the House divided on the amendment, which was lost by 36 to 27. Speaking to the original motion, Mr Rolleston emphatically denied having contributed to bring about the present painful position; and moved to add to the original motion the words " and further regrets that the Premier should have taken the occasion of overhearing a remark by the hon. member for Hawke's Bay to the Chairman of Committees to make a statement affecting the member for Hawke's Bay to the effect that he was endeavouring to gag the Premier and make him sit down, a statement which was not justified by the words overheard." On a division taken without debate this amendment was lost by 36 to 27. Mr Hutchison made ferocious attack on the Premier, frequently in the course of his remarks steering perilously near using unparliamentary expressions himself, and menacing the Premier with covert threats of the consequence of his action in punishing the leader of the Opposition. He charged the Premier with "making statements not consistent with facts," a legal synonym. iVIr Ward* severely castigated Patea, and ridiculed the idea of making Captain Russell's offence an excuse for censuring ! the Premier. What the Opposition practi- j pally aimed at was to entrap the Premier j into the admission that Captain Russell's ! aspersion on his veracity was deserved, j They saw to-night history repeating itself, the Opposition putting their leader into a hole as they did with Mr Bryce. Mr Ward, continuing his speech, suggested half-an-hour adjournment, and ! the appointment of a small committee from both sides of the House to arrange a compromise. As discussion proceeded feeling grew warmer, and "language" was frequent and free. Mr Scobie McKenzie made a remark implying doubt of Mr Ward's manliness, on which the member for Awarua replied that he was quite as manly as his opponent whether inside or outside the House. Mr Montgomery, whilst admitting that the leader of the Opposition had provoca- i tion, he had put himself in the wrong by ! refusing to withdraw. Mr Monk got peremptorily pulled up by the Speaker for using the words, " cowardly, disloyal, and treacherous," and evincing some disinclination to withdraw them, the rising tones of the Speaker's voice, premonitory of a storm, compelled the member for Waitemata to i cave in. The Premier rose to reply at 12.45, de- J daring that nothing could have given him | greater pain than to have been compelled by a sense of duty to move the motion before the House, but the Opposition had not shown the least consideration for him. The position was that the authority of the Chairman of Committee and the j Speaker had been defied. As to the op-1 position to the Old Age Pensions Bill, j he owned he felt some annoyance at j the course adopted by Mr Taylor in trying j to shelve the Bill by referring it to a!

special committee, but if he had used unparliamentary language it was the duty of the Chairman to have noticed it. The fact was, however, there was nothing in his remark to which anyone could take exception. His impression when Captain Russell asked how long the Premier was • to be allowed to speak was that Captain Russell meant to imply that the Chairman . was showing partiality towards him. No j doubt the leader of the Opposition was in i a passion, but he thought by the time the Speaker assumed the chair the < honourable member's temper would be cool, , and he would withdraw the expressions. The Premier concluded a dignified and powerful speech in his best form at 1.15 a.m., when the motion was carried on a division (demanded by Mr G. Hutchison i against the wishes of his party) by 36 to 26. ■ The Speaker requested the Sergeant at Arms to inform the honourable member for Hawke's Bay that his presence was re-1 quired in the House. Some minutes elapsed during which a general buzz of conversation occurred. Captain Russell strode up the gangway, bowed to the Speaker and took lis seat. The Speaker: Captain Russell, I have now to communicate to you a resolution passed by this House. (He read the resoution). Captain Russell said he regretted what occurred, and that he had incurred censure, but he submitted to the House at the same time that the conduct of the Premier for some time had stretched his powers of endurance to the utmost; to-day they snapped. The Premier had escaped blame, while he had suffered. The tone of Captain Kussell's voice indicated strong feeling. The Premier declared he had no desire to give offence by his remarks. He therefore moved that the resolution he not entered in the journals of the House (loud cheers.) The motion was put and earned on the voices. Mr Monk : Then you are a good old Englishman after all. Captain Russell thanked the House for the consideration shown. The Speaker said that the resolution having been passed the resolutions and amendments would not appear on the minutes. (" Hear, hear.") The House then went into Committee on the Old Age Pensions Bill, when MiTaylor withdrew his amendment. Progress was reported and the House adjourned at 1.35 a.m. PETITIONS. Mr McGowan to-day presented a petition from residents of Gum town, between Thames and Coromandel, praying for telephone communication with Whenuakite. Mr Holland presented a petition from John MacClusky of Auckland, formerly Inspector of Police at Oamaru and Otago, praying for inquiry and compensation, also a petition from Adam John MacClusky to similar effect. The following reports by the Petition Committee were brought down to-day : Re Manfred Kew, of Pokeno, praying for redress against the Auckland Charitable Aid Board, the Committee has no recommendation to make. Re the petition of Tana Taingakau Te Waharoa, of Waikato, and others praying for reforms in matters relating to native lands, the Committee report that as the petition deals with a matter of policy it has no recommendation to make, but they are of opinion that Mr Kaihau, the Maori member, should be afforded every opportunity to bring forward a Bill covering the subject now before the House. The Petitions Committee referred the petition of Colonel Goring to the Government for consideration. MAORI COUNCIL BILL. In the House to-day the Maori Council Constitution Bill was read a second time pro forma on the motion of Mr Henare Kaihau, and referred to the Native Affairs Committee. THE BANK BILL. Captain Russell to-day asked the Premier whether the Bank Bill was complete. The Premier said it had passed Cabinet. This morning Mr Russell asked when the House would be given an opportunity of discussing the appointment of' officers under the Bill. The Premier replied that he could not give an answer until the Old Age Pension Bill is out of the way. COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS. In the Legislative Council to-day the Public School Teachers Incorporation and Court of Appeal Act Amendment Bill was read a third time. The Hon. Jennings moved to re-commit the Education Boards Election Bill, which was carried by 27 to 6, and in Committee he moved an amendment providing that notification of the result of an election should be made in a paper published in the district, which was carried by 25 to 7. The Supreme Court Act Amendment Bill was re-committed, and an amendment inserted providing that the power of registrars to sit in Chambers during the absence or illness of a judge shall not dopend on the question whether the judge resides in the district or not.