THEOLOGIANS DIFFER.

Sun (Christchurch), Volume I, Issue 250, 25 November 1914, Page 5

THEOLOGIANS DIFFER.

PROFESSOR ATTACKED, AN ASSEMBLY DIBTUBBBD. Press Association. DUNEDIN, November 24. At the Presbyterian General Assembly this morning, after tho deliverance attached to the report of the Theological Committee had been adopted, the Rev. P. B. Fraser walked on to the stage and said:— "I desire leave to make a personal statement —an old-time protest- —in a few sentences. Like other members of the Assembly, in another matt6r, I claim liberty of conscience, not, I believe, to subvert the law, principles, or doctrines of this Church, but to stand by them. I desire the Assembly, withoiit "reflecting on its ; members; whom I hold in the highest esteem, to relieve me from the responsibility of serving on its committees or taking part in its proceedings, until such time as the Professor of Theology (Professor Dickie) gives in writing, in any way he pleases, or as the Church may require, a frank and explicit declaration of his beliefs, convictions, and teachings on the fundamental doctrines of this Churclu I have already raised a note of interrogation in the Assembly, and have waited a year for a reply. I have reason to believe, and publicly affirm, that the Professor's teaching and the theology he (recommends, are subversive of the fundamental faith of the Church, and I take this method as the best availabe to me of renewing my protest and of clearing my conscience vindicating my judgment from all complicity in his teaching, the true nature of which the Church at large, and the bulk of the Assembly' 'Save,' I believe, nb adequate and accurate knowledge."

The Rev. James H. Mackenzie (clerk): I move that this be not received. The doctrine of one of our professors is challenged. There is a way bv which this may be done, and Mr Fraser knows very weii what is , the right order of procedure. It is for'him to take the right order. The Assembly will be acting rightly if it declines- to receive-this protest. (Applause.) : The lte\\ R. F. Rybiiru seconded the motion. The. Rev. A. M. Finlayson: Take no notice of it; go o*n the next business; it is altogether Irrelevant. I move that.

'The Rev. J. H. Mackenzie: I intend to move, if my first motion is carriod, that no Tecord be made of it. " The, Rev. Oscar Blundell seconded Mr Finlayson's motion. The Moderator: I consider the eourso indicated by the clerk is right! It seems to me quite reasonable, and if no one else wishCa to speak to the motion or the amendment, I shall put the question.. (Cries of " Vote.") ; Dr Gibb: I want to say a word. (Voices: ' 'No,' 'and confusion, a .dozen members rising to speak.) Rev. Mr Fraser: I never anticipated, or expected .that any official , notice would be taken of what I state. lam totally indifferent to what goes on the minntes.

Bev. I. Jolly: There is a motion to proceed to the next business; that must be put at once. At this stage quite a number of members got up to say what should be done. ■Dr Erwin: It is beneath the dignity of the Assembly to permit these statements to be made from year to year and to take no notice of them. If a member makes statements which he is not prepared to substantiate, he is responsible "to the discipline of the Church. Mr Fraser must either substantiate his charges or for ever hold his tongue. (Applause and cries of "Vote!")

After a little more discussion, the Assembly being in a state of confusion, Professor DicMe said: "I claim the .protection of this House. It is a shame and a scandal that any brother minister should treat me as Mr Fraser does. I claim protection, and the House refuses me its protection if it passes froni the matter in this way." Rev. A. Cameron: I think the only thing to do is to call on Mr Fraser to substantiate the charges he has made in or withdraw them. Mr Fraser: I ciaim,ordinary protection. Is it a proper thing to say that lam stabbingca man in the dark! Mr Cameron: Well, I withdraw that.

Mr Eraser: It is very unlike stabbing in the daTk what- I have done. Proceed* with the motion, and indict me. Mr Cameron: I move that Mr Fraaer be called on to substantiate or - withdraw". Dr Erwin: I second that. I have here a copy of a paper of whicb Mr Fraser is editor, a paper that is being disseminated through the Church. In that paper there are two specific charges -against Professor Dickie in the editorial notes. The first is that his teaching is not in harmony with the doctrines of the Church, and the other is that Professor Dickie has been false to his ordination- vows that he took when he became a professor of this Church.

The Rev. R. M. Ryburn thought the best- way to proceed was to refer the matter to the Judicial Gommittee, and to ask-the committee to give, at a future sederunt of - the Assembly, guidance in this matter.

Rev. Mr Jolly: The charges should be substantiated or at once withdrawn. The Assembly owes it to Professor Dickie to give him full protection.

Rev. Mr Balfour: Aa convener of the committee, I support the motion. It is our absolute duty to stand by our professor, and specially to .protect him from attack in an irregular way. In reply to a question, the clerk said the motion meant that Mr Eraser was called on to libel Professor Dickie according to the laws of the Church, or else to withdraw his charge. It could not be doue is the Assembly; it must be done through the Professors' Presbytery—the Presbytery, of Dunedin. The Rev. Mr Trotter said "that if he were in Professor Dickie's position, he would claim libel right away. Mi-

Eraser, if sincere, was bound to libel him. J Professor Dickie: - Had it not been that my regard for the honour of the Church is greater than my regard for my own dignity, J would have before; this demandM libel from Mr Fraser.| I now make that demand. (Applause,) J Mr Fraser: I have always held that j is innocentuntil he is provedguilty. I have also heard that a competent: witness who makes a charge is held to be innocent until he is proved guilty. Have I been- Jbeld innoeent'l I -believe j ; the Theological Committee is the onlyj one that can AibeV a professor, not a j private individual, but' whatever the proper way may be> ' I .shall be prepared, at the proper time and place, and when properly guided, to take up n*y; rightful' position,/ and all- oratory here to discredit a competent witness is nothing; I claim, As a competent 'Witthat I shall not be prejudiced as I have ; been ; attempted to be by friends of the professor. v ■"At this stage a point of order was raised by the Rev. Mr Clark, .that Mr Fraser was not a witness at N present. The Moderator: Mr Fraser',is in perfect order. '

Mr Fraser, continuing, said the Assembly could take its :own course iix the meantime. He Vl aimed the right to be treated as an innocent witness. ' The Rev. B. Hutson ■ saidt the discussion was altogether irregular, and he protested that there was no way of dealing with« matters of ithis kind except through the Presbytery.

Dr Gifcb: You have here a definite cjiargo against Professor Dickie, and the Assembly must do something " for the protection of the professor. It is necessary to insist that, during the currency : the Assembly, Mr Fraser should ta£e definite steps to prove his case.

A motion that Mr Fraser substantiate or withdraw was then; carried unanimously. Kcv. A. Cameron: I move—"That the Judicial Committee be asked to consider the position and report to the Assembly this afternoon.'' / A voice: Mr Fraser is orf the committee himself. Dr Gibb seconded the motion, which was,carried without dissent. At the meeting of the Assembly in the afternoon, the Judicial Committee recommended that Mr Fraser be required to state his charges against Professor Dickie in writing, and the ground for same, and to appear before the Assembly to-morrow to substantiate them. " ■ •