OBJECTIONS TO SERVICE.

Sun (Christchurch), Volume I, Issue 192, 18 September 1914, Page 11

OBJECTIONS TO SERVICE.

THE GOSPEL OF HARD WORK. REMEDIES OF LOCAL BODIES. [From our own Parliamentary Eeporter.] WELLINGTON, September 17. The Minister of Defence (the Hon. James Allen) recently wrote to the local bodies in the Dominion asking for suggestions regarding alternative service for conscientious and religious objectors to military training. The Minister said in his letter that he would be glad if the local bodies would favour him with suggestions on the following:->— 1. What nature of work would be most suitable in town or country? Would the local authorities provide work? 2. What would be the most suitable method of supervision and recording the work done? Would the local authorities assist in the administration? 3. Would it be possible to carry out the work as provided in Regulation 247 (providing for the periods of camp training)? If not, how would you propose to allot the time for work? 4. Any other points that may occur to you.

THE ANSWERS. The answers to these questions were embodied in a return which the Minister presented to the House yesterday afternoon, and they comprised a most interesting assortment of suggestions. In the first column of the return was "Yes" or "No." In answer to the question if the local body was in favour of alternative service for the objectors, there were no negative replies, although there were several local bodies which did not reply. Most of the suggestions as to work were of the nature of public reserves improvement. Amongst typical suggestions were the following: —- Quarry work, etc., or work not requiring constant supervision (Akitio). Fatigue work at camps (Amuri). Repair and maintenance of public roads (Bay of Islands). Recommending that the Government find employment for objectors on various public works (Bruce). Town beautifying under supervision of engineer or overseer (Carterton). Council is willing to undertake to find employment under Government supervision, which might be done by the local constable; it is desired that objectors should be allowed (or compelled) to carry out the whole of their substituted duties for any year at one time, so as not to have to be called up at frequent intervals (Castlepoint). Tree-planting , under Government supervision (Cheviot). Government should provide work (Eketahuna). Eradication of noxious weeds (Egmont). Cooking or general rouse-about work (C.orpmandel). Employ objectors on suitable road work (Hawke's Bay). Planting sand dunes and other waste lands throughout the Dominion under the supervision of the proper Department (Rangitikei). The Westland County Council was very straightforward in its reply: '' Objectors should be deported or lose their civil tights or be put in gaol." Mosgiel comes out with an almost equally strong suggestion: "Objectors should not be eligible for any position in the Civil Service, or allowed to take part in land ballots, : and should be disfranchised.'' Chi'istchurch City Council said in reply: ?' Acknowledged, but resolved no action be taken.'•'

The' \ general trend of the replies showed that the vast majority of the local bodies had no sympathy . with shirking, and several expressed disagreement with the proposal to allow tion on i ( conscientious'' grounds. Others made no recommendation, because there were no objectors in their district Every suggestion sent in .showed a firm belief in the efficacy of hard work as a cure for "conscientious" objections.

THE DISCUSSION. The discussion in the House which followed the motion to print the return 'was a most interesting one, full of live incident. "SERF LABOUR." Mr J. Payne (Grey Lynn) said that the statement made by the Minister of Defence had opened up vistas of -hundreds of young men in the Dominion compelled to do what was practically serf labour in .the public parks and domains. This meant going back to the Stone Age. (Laughter.) The young men were to be treated exactly like convicts and criminals. During the last few days they had all been boasting that the small army of Great Britain was equal to the hordes of Europe, because one volunteer was equal to five pressed men. (Renewed laughter.) It was not fair to compel youths to train in military duties when it was against their religious belief to take part in warlike exercises. He believed that, if necessary, every man should be able to shoot and ride, so as to take part in the defence of his country, but there was no necessity for compulsion in British communities at present. If. young men could not conscientiously undergo military training, they should not be forced to it. ...

~ Mr H. Smith (Waitaki): What are we to do-rrfight for them? * ' The present war, Mr Payne continued, was being engineered by the capitalistic class. ■ (Loud cries of dissent.) The Speaker said that Mr Payne was departing from the subject. Mr Payne said that the highest ideal of mankind was that there should be no warfare or militarism. The theory that to prepare for war was to preserve peace had been amply disproved during the last few months.

The Speaker again interrupted Mr Payne, who concluded by emphasising his belief that those young men who objected to training had every right to do so, and that their opinion on this matter should be respected as much as' any other religious belief. GLAD TO GET PROTECTION. Mr A. M. Myers (Auckland East) expressed regret at the words used by the last speaker. It was clear that all these conscientious objectors' were glad enough to get the protection, of militarism. (Hear,' heai\) Conscientious objection was-.-often- simply another phrase for selfishness. Mr Payne: Why haven't you gone to the front, then? ~.,.- ; . Mr Myers: I am doing my duty here, and I would go to the front to-morrow if the occasion arose. Mr Payne: You've had your" opportunity, and you haven't .gone-yet!.. Members: Oh! (and others): Shut up!" : ' BACK TO MARY. Mr J. MeCombs (Lyttelton.) '• said he would be sorry to see any British community go back on a constitutional principle, which had held since the time of Mary. An Hon. Member: Which Mary? (Laughter.) Mr MeCombs: .If you read history

3-0U will know what happened in the reign of Queen Mary. He went on to say that the Government would be doing better for the State were it to pay navvies- to do the work on the roads, instead of forcing young men to do it for nothing. The principle that everyone in the country should render personal service was a most pernicious one. The burden of defence could best be distributed by way of taxation than by resorting to the old vicious system of universal personal service. Those Avho did not go to the front did their share by paying through the ordinary incidence of taxation. The Speaker ruled that the lion, member, was departing from the question, and entered into an argument with Mr McCombs as to the latter's right to continue in the same strain. Finally the authority of the Chair was sufficient to prevent Lyttelton's attempt to deliver an anti-militarist tirade. THE MAN WITH THE MONEY.

Mr T. M. Wilford (Hutt) said that the return would be a most useful guide to the House to know what should be done with the conscientious objector. There was no difficnty about the religious objector, because a religious objector could not be over-ruled. As for the local bodies' suggestions; they came from thoughtful men, and would undoubtedly be useful. The conscientious objector must do something for the State instead of service. Mr Payne He 7 s already bearing an over-burden of taxation. Mr G. J. Anderson (Mataura): Shut up! Mr Payne Shut up yourself! Mr Wilford said that payment in lieu of service would never do, because* the rich men w ; ould get out of service altogether. IMPRACTICABLE SUGGESTIONS. Mr G. W. Russell (Avon) expressed disappointment with the return in that many of its suggestions were not suitable. The Minister had stated in the circular letter to the local bodies that only 69 youths were exempted for conscientious objection to training. This was an infinitesimal number, and he thought it wqs almost satisfactory, one. His disappointment wa"s merely with the number of impracticable suggestions. His own private opinion was that during such a crisis as the present one all the froth about anti-militarism disappeared, and a spirit of manhood and patriotism was revealed after all. (Hear, hear.) A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION. V

Mr H. Atmore (Nelson) said that Mr McCombs had been in error in saying that compulsory service had bee.n discontinued in Great Britain since the days of Mary. As a matter of fact," up to the days of the latest Georges the press-gang had been in existence. Mr McCombs, by way of personal explanation, said that what he had stated was that enforced service in the making of roads and doing other public works had been discontinued—-not military service. Mr J. S. Dickson (Parnell): It is being done at Eotorua how. (Loud laughter.) Mr G. Mj. Thomson (Dunedin North) raised a point of order. The historical accuracy of the statements of the hon. members for Lytteltbn and Nelson was not a question for the consideration of the House. Mr McCombs: May I ask a question, sir? . Mr Speaker: Not in the middle of a debate. That would be most irregular. Mr McCombs: It is with regard to your ruling. . Mr. Speaker: The hon. member can pursue the proper course if he wishes to object to my ruling.

Mr McCombs subsided. ; LOCAL BODIES SURPRISED^ Mr G. Forbes (Hurunui) wondered at the idea of the Minister of Defence in sending out a circular to the local bodies affecting only 69 men. Members of local bodies had expressed surprise that the Government —the largest employer of labour —should have gone to the" local bodies for suggestions. Mr L. M. Isitt (Christchurch North) agreed with the last speaker. The number of genuine conscientious objectors was a limited one. There was a large number of genuine patriots in this countryMr D, Buick (Palmerston North): I wish you wouldn't look at me so hard. (Laughter;) Mr Isitt: Sir, if I looked at the hon. member for Palmerston when" I said that, I apologise—to the House. (Laughter.) Let him not lay the flattering unction to his soul that when I spoke of genuine and patriotic citizens in this country, I had him in my mind. (Loud laughter.) THE MINISTER'S REPLY. The Hon. J. Allen, in reply, said that he was pleased to have heard the debate. It showed that the events of late weeks had had V stimulating effect—especially on the member for Avon. (Laughter.)' It had been said.that if provision were made for conscientious objectors, it would be found that there were mighty few of them. He would go further, and say. that very probably there would be none at all.;■ ' (Hear', hear.) The report had been brought down for the : information of members, and he was sure they would,find it interesting reading. He had the most profound Objection to the opinion of the member for Lyttelton that a man should be able* to evade service by paying navvies to do for him. An hon. member: Did he really say that? Mr Allen: Yes. Ido not kiiow whether any other member of the House agreed with this opinion, but he himself had the strongest possible objection to it. Mr A. M. Myers: It is going back to the Middle Ages. An attempt by Mr MtCombs to explain that he meant something else was drowned in cries of protest, and the motion that the paper ba printed was carried on the voices.