LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Sun (Christchurch), Volume I, Issue 143, 23 July 1914, Page 8

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

NEW MEMBERS SPEAK.

THE ELECTIVE PRINCIPLE

Pres* A ivociation. WELLINGTON, July 22. When the Council met this afternoon the Hon.- J. Macgregor resumed the dobate on the Legislative Council Bill. He said that, he still was of the opinion that the Council should be made elective. He supposed there was no doubt as to the necessity for a second Chamber, but tire alteration of the constitution was .not without difficulty. It was not possible to have an ideal Council by means of a nominative system. In Europe the only nominatiVe second Chamber which remained, was in Italy. In the British Dominions, apart from New Zealand, the nominative Cham-ber-only remained in New South Wales, Queensland, and Canada. Impartiality was not possible in the case of nomination. The men appointed were necessarily party men. Canada as the most important Dominion in the Empire had condemned the nominative system. He quoted the Hon. J. D.. Ormond as favouring a change in the constitution in 1891,. but the change proposed in 1891 was no true reform. Election by the people was the only proper method of reform. He held that, the method of reform. INCONSISTENCIES.

The Hon. W. C. F. Carneross recognised that the Bill was to be passed, but he proposed to make a few '' dying remarks" upon the measure. In the course of a reply to Mr Macgregor, he touched upon the inconsistencies of that member's opinions. He admitted that the appointments made by the Liberals were distinctly party ones, but it was only a case of history repeating itself. In the past measure after measure was turned down, until the Liberal Government made appointments to enable legislation to .be car- | rietl through. He spoke as one who had had long experience in both Chambers of the Legislature, and he said in all sincerity, although he had much to thank the people foa*, that .there should be one House entirely free from the terrible pressure which was brought to bear upon members in another place. There was no convincing evidence that the proposed reform was going to be of \ any great benefit to the political life of the Dominion. In the past, he said, many unkind and totally unjustified statements had been made with regard to the personnel of the Council, and he sincerely hoped 'that the few men who Jiad been appointed would not have the same unkind things said about them as had been said about the men previously appointed. It was gratifying for them to know, however, that much of this unkind criticism was being withdrawn, and praise had been bestowed by the Press many members who had been grievously blamed. He believed the Government was sincere in wishing to pass the measure, but it was idle to think that an electoral system would prevent party feeling in the Council. It would be the ■ reverse. OPINIONS UNCHANGED.

The Hon. O. Samuel said there was nothing to induce him to change his opinion with regard to the Bill, but it would be idle for him to utter the words he had uttered in the past. The majority which in the past brought them success had gone. The new appointments made it useless to employ idle resistance. He could never vote for the Bill, but he recognised the concessions made to those in opposition. The only reason for ceasing to oppose the Bill was because it was hopeless. He recognised the truth of the Maori axiom, ''The potato is cooked." The Hon. A. T. Maginnity said he came to the Council with no specific instruction from the Government. He asked Councillors to consider the question with strict impartiality. *He had followed closely the argument raised by old Councillors. He was sent to the Council as an extreme Liberal, and as a Liberal he supported the electoral system. The whole scheme of government in New Zealand was represented now by popular vote. In county councils, school committees, and all other public institutions, the popular vote prevailed. They had to consider the feeling of the people and deal with th£ Bill from a democratic standpoint. The Bill carried out the Liberal creed and gave the people the same opportunity to vote lor the election of councillors as they now had to vote for members of the House. ALTERING THE CONSTITUTION. The Hon. C. H. Mills said he did not think a mistake had been made in retarding the progress of the Bill. He did not think it wise to alter the constitution without knowing what was to be given _in its place. He thought that, the nominative system had given good results. An elective system would not do away with mistakes made by the Council. The Council was no obstacle in the way of reform. It was difficult to frame some change which would meet the case. In the past he had seen very little party spirit in the Council. By adopting the elective principle they would keep many able men from rendering service in the Council. They all admitted that reform was necessary, but the question was what form the ! reform" should take. « The Hon. R. Moore said he felt it was not possible for him to give an alto- ] getlver silent vote, and, as a new member, he thought he should give his opinion. He did not look upon the | proposed change as a reform, but as an extension of the powers of the Council. They would have a mandate from the . people, instead of from one man. That was the only democratic view which could be taken of the subject. In the past the Council had done good work, {Mid. he was not in favour of its abolition. While he felt that some other franchise might be adopted, he did not see how a change could be effected on the proposals made. He would be sorry to see the Council a reflex of the House, but owing to the different electorates he did not think this was possible.

The Hon. G. Jones said the speech upon the measure made by the leader of the House was subtle and able, but it did not impress liini in the same wav ais-it had apparently impressed other members. There was no mandate from the people to make the change proposed. It was only a plank put into the "Reform" platform. There was no' party in the Council excepT the party of principle. The Hon. J. Barr said that analysing the work of the Council there was no need for a change in the constitution but he supported the elective principle. He was not satisfied that the proportional system was all that it should be. He hoped that something would be done in committee to improve the Bill.

. The debate was adjourned upon the motion of the Hon. J. T. Paul.