THE DEFENCE BILL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLVI, Issue 14244, 15 December 1909, Page 8

THE DEFENCE BILL.

PASSED ITS SECOND READING PERMANENT CAMP GROUNDS. [by mlegbaph.— association.] Wellington, Tuesday. Replying on the second reading of the Defence Bill in the Houise of Representatives this morning, Sir Joseph Ward said he could not understand the suggestion that the Bill should be delayed. If it was necessary to have reorganisation, why should they delay going about it ? It did not appear to him to be necessary to stand the Bill over until next session, and he did not intend to do anything of the kind. He would bo exceedingly sorry if it was thought that ho favoured conscription. Regarding the concentration of men in tho camp, tho intention was to acquire a sufficient area of land in each island to allow of the work of training being carried out in a systematic and proper way. These areas would be near the main railways, the buildings would be permanent. Under his proposals the convenience of employers could be better stud than at the present, and the educative value of work made much greater. Unless the scheme had the goodwill of the people it would be impossible for it to ha a success, and he hoped the people would give it a full and proper trioJ. The campaign of Mr. McNab in favour of universal training had been of great value indeed. The second reading was agreed to. The Bill was committed, and progress was reported at 2.5 a.m.

THE DO-NOTHING POLICY. PROTEST AGAINST THE BILL. A deputation of Labourists and others waited on the Prime Minister to-day objecting to some features of the Defence Bill. Mr. D. McLaren, M.P., said they considered the proposals trenched too far on the liberties of the people. Mr. P. J. o'R.egan opposed the Bill, chiefly on account of the expense it involved. He believed there was no fear of invasion. Others urged the pronation of arbitration. Another point was that by adopting compulsory training, New Zealand would lose immigrants now leaving Continental countries because of the compulsory system in force there. In replying, Sir Joseph Ward said the deputation either had been misled as to what was proposed in the Bill or they did not understand it. No one could imagine for a moment that the Bill proposed to follow the German system. It was idiotic to imagine anything of the sort. We were not mad'in New Zealand, and he was surprised that anyone could get such an idea from, the proposals the Bill provided. As far as volunteering for service beyond the seas was concerned, it was only what had been the law for years. They had a duty to perform which they could not shirk, and if they carried out the do-nothing policy suggested, they would very soon find some country besides Great Britain ruling New Zealand. Clause 22 of the Bill, he added, distinctly stated that no 'part of the territorial force should be liable to• serve outside New Zealand. As to compulsion, he remarked that there had for years bean compulsion in the schools in * regard '} to military training, and no father or mother, as far as he knew, had taken exception to it. He had no fear of invasion, but they had to remember that if .the Old Country were beaten in a war, the victors mighli easily feel inclined to take New Zealand as part of their possessions, and for that reason, in duty to their wives and children, they had to ensure the supply of a reasonably welltrained force ready for use in such an emergency. The proposals contained in the Bill had been before the country ever since the Budget was published, and from all . parte of toe country, and from all sections of the public he had received communications congratulating the Government on its proposals. He had taken a very special interest in volunteering for many years, and had come to the conclusion that it had failed.

• ,Mr. A. W. Hogg, M.P. : It has been nearly starved to. death.

Sir Joseph Ward replied that as a matter of fact there has been a great deal of money spent in volunteering. They did not ask the men to undergo the training for nothing. They would be paid direct. What they wanted to aim at in New Zealand, without going in for a system of universal compulsory training, was ' a moderate system by which they would ensure that whatever they had in the shape of defence should be efficient. He did not want a system of militarism to grow up in New Zealand, and they would find that under the system proposed by the Bill that could not arise. Australia and other countries were going in for similar systems on a more extended scale. 'It really did seem to him that the deputation did not understand what was proposed by the Bill. The workers would be the sufferers by any attack on New Zealand, and the Bill was as much in the interests of the workers as of any other class of the community. It was far better to spend £100,000 a year extra in preventing war breaking out, than to spend half a million or a million a year afterwards, or to be annexed by any other country. As to arbitration, that would be one of the finest things they ! could possibly attain,, but, unfortunately [ it was not possible under existing ciri cumstances.

THE BILL IN COMMITTEE. MILITARY OR CIVIL RULE. This evening the House went into committee or. the Defence Bill. • On clause 4 Mr. Allien asked if any provision had been made for supplying cadets and territorials* with pay and clothing. Sir Joseph Ward ruplied that the regulations in regard to pay and clothing were not included in the Acts dealing with territorials in Great Britain nor in Australia. He could give no further in formation than that it was proposed to give the territorials <5s a day and rations while in camp, and that no uniforms were to bo provided for cadets. These matters would be dealt with by regulation. Mr. Massey moveJ to add a sub-clause to clause 4 (the clause giving power to the Governor to make regulations) as follows : " Such regulations shall be laid before Parliament within 14 days after being gazetted, if Parliament is then sitting, and if not then wilhin 14 days of tho meeting thereof." Mr. Allen euppoited the amendment, bus thought all regulations should be submitted to a, committee of the House.

Mr. T. E. Taylor strongly protected against the creation of a military power over the civil authority, and supported the amendment, on the ground that Parliament should have tho right to amend the regulations before they were gazetted. Sir Joseph Ward denied that the Dominion hid followed the territorial system of Great Britain. This clause was based on the lines of the present Defence Act, and no trouble had arisen in regard to the regulations, and there had never been any reason for putting them before the Houee. , Mr. Allen said nearly everything was being done by regulation. He considered the House sluvdd have the opportunity to review the regulations so that provision could be made for supplying cadets with uniforms, which were necessary in order to maintain discipline. After further discussion the amendment was put and lost by 42 votes to 31. Mr. T. E. Taylor moved to add a subclause, providing that any person serving in any section of the defence force who may be charged before a military tribunal with an offence against the regulations issued by the Governor shall have the right of appeal from the decision of the Military Court to a stipendiary magistrate. This amendment was rejected by 52 votes to 9, and the clause passed. On clause 5 (providing for the appointment of officers) Mr. Malcolm moved to add words: "Subject to the proviso that every company in the territorial forces may elect all the company officers thereof." The amendment was defeated by 56 votes to 9. Clause 12, which sets up a council of defence, was objected to by Mr. Allen, who moved to omit sub-clause C, which provides for the appointment of a finance member of the council. This was negatived on the voices, and the clause was passed. Clause 14 (prescribing the duties of the commandant) was struck out on the motion of the Prime Minister. On Clause 23 Mr. Allen said he would call for a division on the clause, as he considered the proposed method of drafting men from the general section to tho territorial force a bad one. He moved that the words " general training section" be omitted from the clause. The amendment 'a as lost by 42 votes to ?3. Considerable discussion arose on clause 26, which provides for assets and liabilities of disbanded corps passing to the Crown. Mr. Fisher suggested that the clause should be held over, but the Prime Minister declined this, and moved to report progress. The House rose at 1.30 a.m.

LIQUOR IN CANTEENS. PRIME MINISTER EXPLAINS. r BY TELEGRAPH.PRESS ASSOCIATION.] Wellington*, Tuesday. Speaking in the House on the canteen question, Sir Joseph Ward said members had misapprehended in some respects the provisions of the Bill regarding canteens. He had put the provision in, and had moved to strike it out. Ho had put it in in. order to endeavour to control and regulate liquor at encampments, and he was not at all sure whether the right thing had been done now. It would be impracticable absolutely to prohibit the importation for personal use of liqour in camps. If they wanted to guard against abuses they must put power into the hands of some person who had control of an encampment. Under his proposals there was no reasonable ground for anyone to have any fear as to the outcome regarding liquor in camps.

NO GUARANTEE. Chbistchubch, Tuesday. The question of canteens at Government training camps was briefly discussed at a meeting of the Christchurch Presbytery to-day. The Rev. John Mackenzie noted with pleasure that the cluase providing for canteens * had been struck out of the Bill in committee, but he said there was no guarantee that it would not be eventually reinserted. He moved : "That in view of the fact that the majority of . those in the training camps under the proposed defence proposals will be under the age of 21 years, this Presbytery records its strong protest against any attempt to establish in such camps military canteens for the sale of intoxicating liquor. The Presbytery notes with satisfaction that the Defence Committee of the House has made a recommendation to strike out of the Bill the clause authorising the establishment of canteens, and urges Parliament to accept the committee's recommendation." The motion was carried without dissent.

PRESBYTERIAN SATISFACTION.

The Religion and Morals Committee of the Auckland Presbytery expressed itself, at last night's meeting of the Auckland Presbytery, on the canteen question, as follows :—"The committee notes with pleasure that the Parliamentary Committee has struck out the provision for the supplying of liquor in military canteens, and trusts that the House will pass the law in this form." The Presbytery adopted the report. ABOLITION WANTED. The following resolution has been passed by the St. Matthew's branch of the Church of England Men's Society in regard to the canteen question :"In view of the possibility of compulsory military training, the Government be approached to abolish liquor canteens in military camps." • The resolution -has been forwarded to the Prime Minister, and copies also sent to the other branches of the Church >of England Men's Society?