PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4217, 20 May 1875, Page 2 (Supplement)

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

SESSION XXX. Wednesday, 19« i May, 1575. The Council met at threo o'clock. 0 of Council read the minutes of • the previous eittiug, which were continued. •• I'EriTIONS. '■ Captain Moitms presented a petition from 3 A. W. and P. S. M. Burrows, relating to a land claim. 0 Mr. LrsK presented a petition from 1 Saiuuel Harris, praying for relief on account " of certain experiuieute m brick-making, upon " the success of which he was to receive a bonus, which, however, was not available. fc Mr. May presented a petition from tho ; chairman of the Highway Board of Mount Eden District, who stated that in consej queiice of certain exemptions they could not procure funds to make the roads.and praying ' that there 'should be on exemption* wliat--1 su:ssAiiK. : His HoNOII transmitted a message, enclosing a letter from Mr. William Archibald J Murray. M.H.A.. complaining ol the manner in which certain bush land in the \\ aikato f had been obtained from the natives for private parties. KtriJlS TO QIIV-TIOSS. I Tho Pk.ivinvi m. TiiKAsruKit, in reply to a .|iiestioii bv Mr. I.lovd, whether any steps ; had ben taken to open the Kast Coast IXomI ' to Mahuraiigi. said that m conscience ot . no money having been received out ot the ' sum voted for works and roads North, no ' ! funds were available—ln reply to a .pics- ; I tion bv A. K. Taylor, relating to the Kai- ' I para railway, he said that when Mr. l>arI -aville put a similar question, the Provincial [.'Government applied to the General Go- , ; veriiment for information, but none had been 1 ; received.-I.i reply to Mr. l.undon, he said 1 ■ that the works required to be done to the i Manukau wharf would cost CGOOO, but such [ ' an expenditure was out of the question, "he ' Government had no funds to devote to the. pn-pose.— In reply also to Mr. l.undon, the Provincial Treasurer said that a letter had been written to the General Government, relatin" to the confiscated land at Mangere, but no reply had been received. In reply to Mr. Racnali. with reference to the claim of Mac--1 grc'gor, Hamlin. and others, he said instructions were given by the late Superintendent to the Warden {to investigate the matter, ; but the Warden had not reported. KAir.i ih-m. '■ Mr. rune. AVli.i.k moved, " That in the I opinion of this Council it is desirable that a duty of £5 per ton be levied oi. all kauri gum | exported from this colony, and that the revenue derived therefrom be declared land revenue, and applicable exclusively to purposes of education. That a copy of this resolution be ; transmitted to his Ho"nor the Supcriuteti- : dent, asking him to forward the same to the General Government, with a request that | legal etlect may be given thereto.' . He was ; convinced that the duty charged would come j out of the pocket, not of the producer, but | of the consumer. In this respect kauri gum I differed from the other staple exports of this | • place. Whatever duty they might put on j ; wool, timber, or gold, such imposition would i not have the slightest ciVect upon the price ! ■in the foreign market. These commodities : • had the similar commodities of all other I countries to compete with them. But in the | case o'" kauri gum there was no other j ' commodity of the samo kind to enter into competition with it—at . all events, not to any large extent. 1 There was the copal gum, which was used ' for purposes to which only the most valuable | sort of the kauri gum could be applicable, j ; The Manilla gum. which was only used for , purposes inferior to those to which kauri : gum would be applied. There was thercj fore at the extreme ends of the question a colour of competition, but it was exceedingly I emalL There was no competition in the ! main. But kauri gum was used to make j varnish. The buyers here had large mauu- ! factories for varnish in England and Ame- | rica, and they buy for this special purpose, j ! JNow, the value of kauri gum for the pur- | ! pose of manufacture was double that which ; I was represented by the price paid for it in ' i Auckland. These people must have the | ! gum for the purposes of these manufactories. | ' The consequence was, that if a £j duty i were put on it the duty would be paid by ' the consumer. Not one shilling more was 1 given to the actual digger of this gum than ; afforded an inducement to go and I lind it. That amount must be given j to the producer, whatever happened. ' That woulu not be affected iu the least by I the imposition of this duty. In the manu- j factured product for which the kauri gum ! was required the value was quadrupled. : . Hence it was indispensable to those raanu- j i facturers, they must have it, and the duty I proposed would form a tax. But they and the persons who were their customers were the consumers. j Mr. Cakpextek did not think the hon. j member had made out his case. He knew | of gums which might be used to compete I with the kauri. He did not think the pro- I posal could be carried into effect without i materially affecting the price given to the ; producer. The men who dug the gum were the poorest and the most depressed of tho people, and could little resist the pressure ; put on by the buyer. i Mr. HensT supported the motiot. He had considered the whole question verv earnestly. He believed Mr. DargaviUo had made out a really good case. A duty of £5 a ton was a mere nothing. It "-vould not affect the digger. Mr. Carpestek explained that the price given to the diggers of gum was exactly in proportion to the rise or fall of price in tho market. Mr. Hcp-st feared the hon. member took a somewhat biassed view of the subject. ; He had taken the greatest interest in this question of education. i Mr. Lloyu failed to be convinced. lie I was afraid that the buyers in Auckland j would not be the persons to pay the £5, and ! it would ically be a misfortune if the gum- ! digger was to be discouraged. The gumj diggers, as a class, were p-jor and helpless, for whatever profit they got for their gum was taken out of them by the high prices of provisions iu the local stores. Mr. Swansox said the House was challenged to produco an authority to shewwhere there was a special commodity taxed in the way proposed. McCullough laid it down very clearly, "That where any Government was so placed that they have an exceptional article which nobody else produces, or if the article is so much better than other countries possess, that was a legitimate article to make pay an export duty. ' The instances cited in the article in the " Encyclopaedia Britannica" (article " Tr.x-tioii") were, guano from Peru, tea from China, olives from Italy, opium

from India, " birds'nests"' from Java ;~ am it was sta'cd that these special commodities were more numerous than was supposed. 1 was clearly laid down that when such article: paid an export duty the foreigner paid for it and not the hemic producer. ' There was tin greatest need to provide funds fur education. It was a reproach to the people of Aucklaiui that they were in a worse educational position than any other province. Any decision of the Council on this subject would only bring it before the public for full discussion. Mr. Lu.ndu.v opposed the motion, for it proposed a special tax. This was a tax upon the North. The gum-digger was the poorest and most miserable of the people. It was scarcely possible that the supply should not be restricted ; this would raise the price out of the colony. Who knew that the lion, gentlemen who had broached this subject kfc'l iiot large quantities abroad. [Mr. Dargavilie and Air. Hurst said they had not sixpenayu'orth of gum out of Auckland.] Mauy of these diggers sullered from cold, exhaustion, and starvation, and their condition presented too tare a temptation to the buyer to reduce the price. He (Mr. Lundon) had done »3 math tut education «s anybody io

that House, eo that hon. members must not charge him with being indifferent on that matter. Mr. Lcsk thought a little experience npon such a question as this was worth a very great deal of dexterous reasoning. If kauri gum were so purely exceptional that it was not to be found elsewhere, or that no substitute could be found for it,—that manufacturers must have it, whatever they paid for it, in order to carry on their business, then the argument adduced by the mover would be good arguments. Tho real fact was, that this was a question of evidence and fact which must be obtained before they could do anything in such an important matter. He would move that the question be referred to a select committee to collect evidence upon the subject. Tho Pkovim-iai. 'I'IiEAsrKKK thought the amendment proposed by the hon. member (Mr. I.usk) was in every point the correct one. If the premises of Mr. Pargavillc Were correct, his conclusion was correct. But lie was not satisfied as to the premises. There was no doubt if thu article were necessary for the purposes of manufacture, and no substitute could lie found for it, then the outside purchaser would pay the export duty. He seconded the amendment. Sir ltor.Ki:!' Doi/ci.as was afraid it would be found that many kinds of varnish would compete with that "for which kauri gum was used. He believed there were a great many articles to compete, with it. But if they were to get the money in the way proposed, it would be got in the North. Why not employ some of it for roads in the North ? for there were schools with no roads to them. Mr. Bovlan doubted whether the meetings of the select committee could be cou- ! veiled. He thought the introduction of the ! question on a former occasion bv Mr. l>arga- : villo was very unfairly dealt with. All the information a select committee could get, the \ Council or members of the Council could ' give. He would support the motion. j Captain Mom.-is thought the suggestion J that the proceeds of the gum should be ex--1 peiided where the gum was obtained was a jfond suggestion. It was obtained in other . places than iu the North. It should not lie recollected that a great deal of it was got at I Poverty Hay. I Mr. Urxn supported the motion. The I matter appeared very small at lirst, but from I the time it was first brought farward by the hon. member (Mr. 1 largavillo) it drew the ! attention of the most intelligent members of j the community, and now possessed an aspect of considerable importance. He thought some, words should be added to the resolu- : tion which would secure the proceeds of '.such duty to lie devoted to education. Mr. A. GiiAiiAMi: supported the motion, as it was the only means he saw of raising a supplementary fund for education. . Mr. liAiiNAl.l. supported the amendment. ' He believed that there might be gums i brought ir.to competition with kauri gum. : ; Though he admitted kauri gnm was a special ■ product, lie was not satisfied that there w;ui J no substitute elsewhere to come into couipe- , j titiou with it. ( j Mr. Swassox askeil permission to reply to j the argument that there might be a substi- ! tute for this special product. Kauri gum I had risen as high as nearly £100 per ton. I That was the time a substitute would have ' been found if there were one. Ho also wished to point out that there were very many qualities of this gum, which might regulate the amount of duty charged. Mr. i;i:is would support the amendment, but if that were negatived he would support the motion. He doubted, however, if lixin-; the amount at £."• were judicious and wise. He thought there must be found means for education, the sum now collected not being sufficient. The gum-digger pays no licence, he goes where he wills, and digs where he Jikes. Mr. Bi-CKi.ANn thought it a little suspicious when an argument against a tax led an hon. member to refer the question to a selec committee. Mr. LrsK said he had not argued against the proposal, but ouly wished the evidence upon the subject. He would vote for the motion. He believed there was nothing to compete with kauri gum under £70 a ton. He believed there would be some temporary inconvenience. A sum of ."is a ewt. was usually paid to tlie natives from whose lauds the gum was taken. Mr. Davis said the gum-digger could now, even at the best, obtain the barest livelihood. Tβ put upon the price thev would obtain the ' pressure of a £."> export duty, which would react on the digger, would be an injustice ' upon the digger. Mr. Shki'iikiu) thought the subject should be referred to a select committee. j Mr. Dakuavili.e, in reply, said the question as to the amount of the tax would be for the General Assembly to decide. He believed this commodity would bear a duty of £20. The hon. member reviewed several of thu comments in the preceding speeches. He could perceive the nature of the opposition to his motion by a reference to a select committee. It was to eall up the buyers, who would no doubt oppose the proposal • very strongly. The effect of passing the amendment would be to shelve the question j for at least another year. Question put, the motion was carried upon ' a division. Ayes, IS :—Boylan, Buckland, Cheeseman, Crawford, Uargaville, Dignan, Goldie, Graham, Hanilip, Hurst, May, Morris, Ilced, lioche, Keyourn, Swanson, Taylor' Wilson. Noes, 1C :—Bagnall, Ball, Brown, Carpenter, Davics, Douglas, Harris, Lloyd, Lundon, Lusk, McLeod, Moat, Peacock, Prime Shepherd, Wood. Motion carried. OIiDERS OF THE D.VY. (iIiAMMAR.SCHOOL ENDOWMENT SALE HILL. The Provincial Tueasl-reu moved the second reading of a bill to authorise the sale of a Grammar-school endowment in the suburbs of Auckland. He explained that the endowment was in Parnell, that the railway ran through it, that the price agreed upon between the General and Provincial Governments was £-10:* 10a, but no power to sell had yet been given by the Council. Bill read a second time. HOSPITAL UESEKVE SALE HILL. The Phovincjal Tkkasckkij moved the second reading of this bill. The ground was wanted for the Auckland waterworks. It was situated near Motion's mill. Bill read a second time. Both bills passed through committee, and were reported without amendment, read a third time, and passed. i'l-ULIC IIL-ILMNUS AIT, IS7-1, KEI-KAI. 1:11 I The Provincial Tueascisek moved the second reading of this bill. He explained the object of the bill. It appeared that a bill was brought into the last session of the Council, to enable the Superintendent to raise money by mortgage upon land, which money was to be expended in certain miblic buildings—namely, a new Provincial Hospital and certain additions to the Provincial Lunatic Asylum. That bill, however, seemed to be. rather a cumbrous way of raising the. money and it was: proposed to do so by jssu ing debentures. Ihe sum to be raised was £00,000 ; th u interest 7 per cent. ; there is to be 1 per cent- sinking fund. Mr. Hritsr moved the adjournment of the debate until next sitting-day. The Provincial Tueasl'ker said the contract for thu hospital had been signed and the work commenced. But there was some difference, or misunderstandiug between the Commissioners and the bank. There was Jf° w to the extent of £20,000. i lie lull had only just been received from the printer, and it would be more convenient to give members a little time to consider tho question. Debate adjourned. The Council rose at 0.10 o'clock.