Provincial Council.
Lyttelton Times, Volume V, Issue 280, 7 July 1855, Page 3
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Provincial Council.
Tuesday, July 3. Present—The Speaker, Messrs. Brittan, Packer, Fooks, Sevvell, Ha'miltou, Barker, Cookson, OUivier, Thomson, and Westenra. The report and;l evidence taken before~:the Cattle Trespass Ordinance Committee were brought up by Mr. Thomson and ordered to be read. A message from His Honor was read, sanctioning the vote of £100, for the purpose of exploring the west coast- In answer to Mr. Thomson,— Mr. Brittan said the Government had no control over the wharf and jetty of Lyttelton, and, therefore, was not responsible for its dilapidation ; neither were they in possession of any information respecting'the erection of buildings upon the wharf. Mr. Hall rose to ask if the Government had made any provision for the better administration of justice at Kaiapoi. Mr. Bkittan said that arrangements had been made with Mr. Torlesse, who had consented to attend on particular days, and at a fixed place. This was the best and only provision that could be made under present circumstances. r« Mi-JTacker said that in accordance with the D'otice^of motion he had given, he proposed to state to the house his, views in reference to ministerial responsibility. He would then submit ajj motion) for the consideration of the council, and propose that the subject be postponed until Thursday evening. He had pledged himself to bring the subject forward, in consequence of the great inconvenience which had arisen from the present practice. They were all aware of the interest which attached to this question when first it was inaugurated at Auckland; it had been hailed as a great boon to the colony, but now they had had this principle conceded to them, it was found there were still vast difficulties surrounding ir. We could not in fact under our constitution give full effect to the principle.- They had an instalment of the principle here, and to some extent it had workedweil, not without interruption certainly. There had been such, for example, in the recent, ministerial crisis. It was this inconvenience he desired to avert. They were, in consequence of the operation of this measure, compelled to carry on the business of the Province by a sort of provisional government, in which no one was responsible. It was true this was chiefly occasioned by the supposed meeting of the General Assembly, and, therefore, had the successors of the late Government gone before their constituents, there might have been a very serious impediment thrown in the way of the Government business. They had felt'the practical inconvenience of the system, and he hoped that having been once tried, it was for ever to be abandoned. How then were the difficulties to be removed ? Were they to abandon the principle and fall back upon the old form ? He thought not. Tt was, therefore, most desirable that the council should endeavour to discover some means by which it could satisfactorily work out the principle. The house he thought was at least agreed upon one point, and that was that His Honor should be properly represented in the council. There would be innumerable difficulties attendant upon the carrying on of the business of the house, ff it was "not so. He proposed that he should be so represented by an Executive, of not more than three members having seats in the council, two of whom should be heads of departments. He had purposely framed his motion so as to draw forth fromhon. gentlemen the fullest expression of their opinions in relation to the question. Its postponement would give time for the consideration of the subject in all its bearings, and enable them so to mature their ideas and their plans, as would be hoped produce its ultimate satisfactory solution. He could notforbear from alluding to the opinions which had been expressed in the newspapers on this question. They had reasoned against its practicability; but like the able writer, Connell Counsellor,"whose talented letters they had all read, they saw the difficulties in their way, but they were none of them bold enough to hazard the suggestion of a remedy. He would, therefore, move the discharge of the order of the day, and would, at a later period of the evening, give notice of motion for Thursday, that the house resolve into Committee to consider the suKject. Mr. Sewkll said he should support the motion for adjournment. There were several points upon which he thought the opinion
of the Committee ought to be distinctly expressed. There was the question whether it is or it is not expedient that gentleman accepting offices of emolument should go before their constituents for re-election. The practice was a constant source of inconvenience, and one they ought to he relieved from. It was by no means a sine qua non. Even in England it had been found necessary to alter the' system. If it became so there, how much more necessary was it here, where the operation of this practice was virtually productive of a total suspension of these functions, occasioned by the issue of writs for the re-election of the Executive Government. A distinct resolution was necessary to meet this portion of the case. Again it was necessary to enquire how far the representatives of the Executive Government in that house, should be heads of the departments; in his opinion such an arrangement was not called for, still be was open to conviction, and he hoped to hear reasons assigned for its desirability. Mr. Hall had expected to hear the sentiments of the hon. gentleman upon the questions whose views were opposed to the existing practice. He wished to know what other course was proposed to be adopted. They were entitled to hear some explanation of these principles before they came to the consideration of the subject. After a few words of explanation from Mr. Packer, the question of adjournment was agreed to. Subsequently Mr. Packer gave notice of the following motion for Thursday : — "That in the opinion of this Council it is expedient that the government of the province should be continued on the system of ministerial responsibility, and that the govemmenUshould be represented in the Provincial Council by not more than three members of the Executive Council, two of whom should be heads of departments, and whose tenure of office should depend upon their possessing the confidence of this Council." In the course of the evening Mr. Fooks gave notice «>f the following motion bearing upon the subject. "That in consequence of the elective and responsible character of the office of Superintendent, the head of the Executive, and the restraint thereby consequent upon the complete free action of the other members of the execntive, it is the opinion of this Council, that the members of the government in this house should not be expected to resign their office, except after a vote of want of confidence carried b' a majority of the whole council." Mr. Fooks asked leave to introduce a bill to amend the Clnuch Property Trustees Ordinance, so far as related to the definition of a member of the Church-of England. He was deeply impressed with the importance of the subject, and of the difficulty in approaching its consideration, but he was impelled by a sense of public duty to undertake the subject. It would he recollected that a petition, very 'numerously signed, had been presented to the Council by the hon. member for Lyttelton (Dr. Donald) praying for an alteration in the Ordinance. The petitioners were all members of the Church of England. The lion, geutleman stated that it was bis intention to move for the repeal of the ordinance, but he had doubtless been prevented by the pressure of other business from devoting attention to the subject. He was not prepared to go so far as to advocate an unconditional repeal of the Ordinance. He would rather give it affair trial, although he had not the smallest doubt, but that sooner or later, it must be entirely repealed or remodelled. He proposed now to move the amendment of so much of it as interpreted the words a member of the church. The ordinance defined a member of the church to be such persons only, as had partaken of the Holy Communion, according to the rites of the Church, at least three times in the course of the year. There were two points to which he desired to draw the atteution of the house. The Speaker interrupted thehon.gentleman, and observed that the hill under consideration was a private hill, and therefore he thought no amendment could be made to it, excepting in pursuance of the fusual course provided by the Standing Orders in such cases. Mr. Fooks., If the hon. gentleman so ruled it, he would of course bow to the decision of the chair. He dissented to that opinion. The bill was to all intents and purposes a public one. It dealt with public property, and could in no sense of the term he thought be deemed a private bill. Mr. Hall said the hon. gentlernau had quite
mistaken the subject. The Ordinauce was ajJj private bill, brought into the House in accor- ,'; dance with the provisions of the Standing JV1 • Orders. The bill had been referred to a Select f'^ Committee and reported to the house. The ).''}, hon.. gentleman now sought to unsettle the ar- [[ rangements of a private corporation by the in-jl; ; ; troduction of a public bill, which would vitally ' ( j: affect one of its fundamental principles. That tj-1 was a question for the Trustees alone to deal with. V Mr. Brittan had never heard a more bold or - t more startling announcement. The Church |f: Property Trustees Ordinance a private bill!}!,' What made it so ? They were in possession of the property which he and others had created ,':. by virtue of their contributions to the Associa- 'i tion. Out of every £300 which he had paid for ; i his land, £100 had passed to this fund. Who j; had created that fund? The'f public ! And ■[{ they were now to be told that this property!,was !'} so vested that it could not be enquired into, [ But he would go further, the bill provided for it all matters of a temporal character.; relating to j, the Church; surely the public had a.3 right to, ■; some voice in reference to these temporalties |l of their own creation. If ever there was a mat- ii ter of purely public interest, this was one, and i, he hoped the principle attempted to be laid - down would not receive the sanction of the. i; house. But if it were a matter in which the !',' forms of the house were concerned, he should, J of course, bow to the decision of the Speaker. ' Mr. Sewell briefly remarked that the bill went very much further than such bills generally , did. He thought it was something more than ; a private bill. If the question was left to the i decision of the house, he should be disposed to I deal with it as a public bill; After a few words from Mr. S. Bealey, '. Mr. Hamilton said it was a question for the [ decision of the Speaker under the 33rd clause of their Standing Orders. The bill had been introduced as a private bill, the petitioners them- , selves having discharged_ all the expenses in connection with it. He would suggest to the hon. gentleman the propriety of adopting the ' usual course provided in such cases, to present a petition to the Council, praying to be allowed to introduce a private bill to amend the ordinance in question. After a few words in reply from Mr. Fooks, The Speaker said he desired to be governed by the wishes of the house, nevertheless, if he was called upon to declare his opinion, he had no hesitation in stating that the course the hon. gentleman had pursued was not in accordance with the Standing Orders. The subject was then dropped. At the request of Mr. Brittan, Mr. Ollivier consented to withdraw the Fencing Ordinance for this Session. The Appropriation Bill was read a second time. " Mr. Hamilton rose to ask for explanations from Mr. Brittau in reference to the condition of Mr. swamp, the road to Lytteiton under the hills and other places, all of which having been explained, The house adjourned. Wednesday, July 3. Present—the Speaker, Messrs. Brittan, Packer, Sewell, Hall, Hamilton, Barker, Bray, Thomson, Ollivier, Westenra. Mr. Brittan rose to ask that the Message from his Honor, having reference to a correspondence with Mr. Watson, of Akaroa, should be taken into consideration. He proposed that the Executive Council should be authorised to relieve Mr. Watson from the costs incurred in defending the action which Col. Campbell had commenced, provided they were satisfied, after a sufficient investigation, that he had acted judiciously in the course he had been advised to pursue. Mr. Sewell said he would briefly explain the circumstances, so far as lie was acquainted with them. . Col. Campbell's name had been omitted from the Electoral Roll, and he hail applied for a mandamus to compel the Returning-officer to state the reasons why be had not placed the Colonel's name on the Roll. The Returning-officer made a return to that writ, and if it had been invalid, he would have been compelled to place the name upon the roll, but the return was declared to be a valid one. The return to the writ, might have been based upou false premises, if so, it would be open for the Colonel to enter an action against the returning officer, but he had not done so, and the mutter, therefore, rested with the judgment of the court, in favour of the returning-officer. The act was forced upon him by the decision of a majority
of the justices while the office of returningofficer was imposed upon Vlr. Watson, in connection with thai of Resident Magistrate, and for which there was no salary provided. Cant. Westrnba asked if there had not been an opinion piven upon the subject by the Provincial Solicitor. Air. Brtttan said there bad. After a few words from Mr. Hamilton in support of the motion, it was agreed to. Tim bouse then went into committee upon the Stunner Road Bill, which after several verbal amendments to many of its clause?, was, after a very lengthened discussion, finally agreed to. The Appropriation hill was also passed through Committee. The house then went into committee upon the Canterbury Association Transfer bill. The several clauses of this bill also passed with a few verbal alterations, the only point of discussion beinar the introduction of a new clause by JMv. Sewell, quieting the titles to lands which bad been let by the agent of the Association with purchasing clauses. The cliinse was finally agreed to upon a division, the numbers being 6 in favour, and 4 against it. The payment of the debentures was extended to the year 1865. The Speaker having resumed the chair, Mr. Hamilton moved that the house should go into committee to consider certain resolutions, in reference to the payment of the travelling expenses of members. :Mr. Fooks opposed the motion, he thought the discussion upon the principle ou<jht to be taken in the house, and not in Committee. It was true a vote had been passed by the Committee of supply, but they bad heard no reasons assigned for the course proposed. He was not disposed to negative the vote, but he was entitled to know the reasons which had been advanced in its justification. The question, was afterwards put to the vote and agreed to. The house therefore went into committee. Mr. Hamilton said the resolutions of which he had given notice had been before the Council some time, and the report of the Committee had been laid upon the table several weeks since; it was accessible to any member who.choose to examine it. He should move the adoption of these resolutions, seriatim, and if necessary take a discussion in Committee upon bringing up the report. Mr. Hall said he should support the resolutions. The proposition was only to pay a purtion of the travelling expenses of members attending the house, —not for the payment of their time. It was asking too much, to require the sacrifice of time and the greater sacrifice still of the expenses they had incurred. But for the adoption of this course they would be virtually throwing the representation into the hands of the residents in Christchurch. He was no party to the vote, because as a resident "in the town he had no claim upon the fuud. Mr. Barker and Mr. Bkittan supported the resolutions for the reasons assigned by Mr. Ball. The resolutions were then agreed to, and reported to the council upon the Speaker having resumed the chair. Mr. Hamilton then moved the adoption of the resolutions, and that they he transmitted to His Flonor, together with the report of the committee and the correspondence in connection with it. After a few words from Mr. Fooks, in explanation, the motion was then agreed to. Several notices of motion were given, and the house adjourned.
